Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

AC was pretty clearly an after thought....the market turned pretty quickly and AC was al of a sudden expected so someone decided they had to add it....parts everywhere.

Unibody in '75? All the small stuff was for sure. Here in the US it was just creping into the bigger cars, a lot of stuff with subframes, the corvettes had basically the same frame 63-82, then a new frame for the 84 model. The vette specs were quite similar to the 308/328, weight and hp wise 76-88. That was then though, today is a different time so a bit out of date now.....

 

Most European stuff was unibody by the mid seventies other than low volume or bigger cars.

 

I guess there's some subjectivity about what "light" is. As another user posted, if we're saying the Delta is 1300kg, that's some 300lbs lighter than the Ferrari... and it also has AWD, four doors, four operable windows, rear seats, a storage area, etc. It's a substantially bigger car, and 300lbs is nothing to joke about. I'd say that just cements my point that the 308 is heavy.

Plenty of cars had to meet the same requirements and don't suffer from the same weight problems. A 911 from the same period is some 7-800lbs lighter in weight, and that's still a fully-optioned, comfortable, comparable car. It complied with the same regulations. The Lotus Esprit is nearly 1,000lbs lighter.
A Volkswagen Golf, from the era, is 1,500lbs lighter in weight. Yeah, it's a Golf, not a 308, but its literally half the weight at ~1,650lbs curb weight.

Conversely, the 308 is only 300lbs shy of a 2018 BMW M3 off the showroom floor, with all of its newfangled electronic and crash technology that makes it heavy.

The 308, in my book, is a little piggy.


Also, I haven't said Ferrari is stupid or that I am smart. I just have stated how "insane" think things are. It's my first time seeing under the tire well of the car, and seeing the absolutely immense amount of steel in there was jarring to say the least.

My man JC hits the nail on the head. The reason the 308 is heavy is because it was built with dated technology. Production numbers necessitated this, but it still remains a truth.

 

That and some parts are crazy heavy like the exhaust, plus there was a lot of extra steel went into the US frames for bumper support and side impact that was not really optimised. I think when Harry measured his glass 308 it was around 1270kgs

 

The 308 has the old fangled 1st gen version of all that.....75lb bumper and such as that was the start of all those regulations

No question its over weight, I don't think anyone is denying that.

 

I'm still calling BS on this whole premise - your book needs to be recalibrated, or you need to get a same model year 911 onto that same book. You're seriously contending that a same model year (1980?) US-spec 911 weights 700 lbs less than a US-spec 308 GTBi? Nonsense. A US-spec 1980 Lotus Esprit is 1000 lbs lighter? Nonsense. A 2018 M3 only 300 lbs heavier? You're actually not far off with that one, but it's maybe 450 lbs.

I'm not claiming that the 308 is any lightweight, and it's worthwhile noting that the 348 was a bit lighter than the 328, the 355 was no heavier, the 360 was lighter despite being significantly larger.

For reference - just googling "curb weight {year} {vehicle make and model}", for a 1980 911 SC Excellence magazine puts it at 2855 curb weight, with it's whopping 172 hp ; Wikipedia lists a 1980 308 GTBi at 2835 lbs (that's a Euro number), a US number is 3159 lbs from automobile-catalog.com. 304 lbs difference. A 1980 Lotus Esprit S2, huge 160 hp, is at least 2425 lbs. That would be 730 lbs difference. By the time the Esprit got a V8 in the 1990s, as a direct evolution of the Esprit S1, it had a curb weight of 3040 lbs. No Ferrari 308/328 gained 600 lbs over the model lifetime!

Maybe exaggerating the weight difference plays to a Youtube audience cheering for a Honda transplant, but I'm not sure it gets as favourable an ignore-the-facts reception here.

 

Nobody has cut out more weight than me, nobody!

 

I weighed my car. It was 3132 without the spare in it. We'll call it 3160 with it. That was also with no fuel in the car. At 7lbs a gallon, for a quarter tank, we're looking at another 30lbs of weight. That's 3190 with a quarter tank of fuel in it. My car has no radio, etc. But we'll stick with 3190 instead of 3200 as a round number because I feel like someone's gonna have an issue with that.

Excellence Magazine lists the '81 911 SC Targa at 2,855. It lists the 911 SC Coupe at 2,557. That's the heaviest weight I can find for one, with Hagerty listing it at 2,315 and another source at 2,320, but even if I give you the benefit here, that's still a 633lb difference. That's damn close to 700. If you want to weigh an '81 911 and get an exact number, be my guest and we can have a perfectly accurate measurement here. My 700lb number is not "wrong" depending on the source. It's absolutely in the realm of being fair, considering if Hagerty is right, that difference is 875lbs. Average them out and I'm still on the low side.

Wikipedia tells me that the weight of a 1981 Lotus Esprit is 2,352lbs. That's 838lbs. Like I said, nearly 1,000.

The Golf is 1650. That's a difference of 1540lbs. That means I underestimated.

And the 2018 M3 can be optioned at 3,494. That's 304lbs difference. Again, underestimated.

All these numbers have some wiggle room. Ignore my 30lbs of fuel if you want. I'm not nearly as wrong as you're painting me to be. If you want to fuss about this ****, go for it, but I'm not making **** up or pulling numbers out of my ass. I'm not making baseless claims. And I'm absolutely not ignoring the facts. If anyone is, it's 308 worshipers.

It's a car. Don't put it on a pedestal.

 

You know the Euro and US versions of each of these cars have different weights, right? You're mostly choosing the apples to compare to the oranges for the sake of your piggy argument. A bit more effort on your part is required to be consistent in US vs US weights for those cars originating in Europe with lighter Euro versions. No pedestal necessary for the 308, we all acknowledge it's not the lightest - but perhaps your pedestals for the 911 and Esprit shouldn't be quite as tall.

You're an engineer, or close enough, based on the work you've done and are doing - being 10% - 15% off isn't really "close enough" (633 ~~700; 838~~1000)

 

I'm quite aware of that, thanks. It's why I used the actual weight of my car and not something I found on google. If I really wanted to make the most of it, I'd go with a GTSi weight to help my argument, but I'm not.

What's your point? I used the exact same source YOU did for the 911 and you're giving me **** about picking and choosing weights?

And you're right it's not "close enough". As said, if you want to be fair and objective about it, we'll go with an average weight of the weights listed for the 911. The first three sources list 2,557, 2,320, and 2,315. That's 2,397lbs for the 911. We'll go with the lightest possible weight for my 308, too, just to help you. No fuel, no spare. 3132lbs.

That's a 735lb delta.

633lbs? 875lbs? That's why I said go weigh a car if you want something truly accurate. Trying to paint me as being inaccurate is a farce though. Stating a 700lb weight difference between the two is objective and fair.

You'd still have argued my point if I said 600lbs to start with, because you just want to be right and argue about it instead of acknowledging that I'm coming to the table with real, sourced numbers that just don't happen to line up with your sources.

Go weigh an '81 911 and come back with a real number and we'll see how far off my "nonsense" claim is. Because even if it's 600, that still means the 308 is exactly as I said: heavy.

Saying the 308 is "nearly 1,000lbs heavier when there's an 838lb delta isn't unfair either. It's called illustrating a point. I came back and gave accurate numbers to back up my point. It doesn't make the 308 any less laughably heavy for what it is.

 

Also, while the 308 has a frame, its actually a semi-unitized structure....that is why a coupe is a bit more rigid than a targa, its all welded together. Still its over weight, but not basic pre-70s frame/body setup.

 

For US spec automobiles 1980 was probably the nadir, the worst of the worst in the struggle to meet ever increasing and sometimes "ludicrous" regulations. Hell, they even had to put 85 mph speedometers in the darn things for a while there. They all had to suffer through it and in general the 308 was up to par with it's main competition that would have been the likes of the 911 and Corvette. We can toss in the Lotus Esprit as well but honestly the S1 was just barely above kit-car quality. Also the bottom line is that these were all street cars so none of them had any interest in compromising comfort and amenities for the sake of lightness. Burroughs is trying to build a race car, it's an entirely different world.

 

My point was, and is, simple and clear - I think you're exaggerating the weight differences for dramatic effect, just as you choose your verbiage to exaggerate the differences. You call it illustrating a point, I call it exaggerating the point for dramatic effect.

Yeah, but no. You must have me confused with someone else. I stated my point, I'm done. Do you need to pick a fight with everyone who disagrees with you about something?

Funny, that's what I suggested - you might want to try to substantiate your claim. I don't have any vehicle scales personally.

"Laughably" - again, you certainly continue to give the impression that you don't have much respect for the 308 and are happy to repeatedly insult it. Heavy, sure, it's no Lotus Elise. Laughably, in the context of 1970s and 1980s low production exotic cars that are compromised by US safety regulations? Nope, disagree.

 

My claims are substantiated. I explained the math. By my measure, using Hagerty as a source, my 308 is 875lbs heavier than an '81 911 SC.

And yes, I mean laughably heavy. It's a tiny car and impressively dense.

Tell, me, honestly, why does the 308 deserve any respect? Because of the pony on the hood or.... ? It doesn't do anything exceptionally well, and isn't renowned for much.

I like the way the car looks. I find it to be one of the most beautiful cars ever made. Past that, I'm making the changes I want to, one of them being a focus on weight... because I think the fact that it's 875lbs heavier than a 911 of the same year is laughable. It means I can laugh at it. Because it's funny. Haha!

 

I think when you're done you might have a decent race car that may be able to pull some respectable lap times around a manicured course but as I said: race car and road car are two different worlds and I believe that out here in the rough and tumble real world, up in the hills and back in the canyons, on roads that are not specially engineered for the task, where your added hp, lowered and stiffened suspension and aerodynamic devices will be useless and in certain respects detrimental, you'll have a tough time keeping up with our "laughable" stock 308 "pigs"

How's that for a run-on sentence? Haha!

 

Now that's funny. Haha!

 

Are you serious with this question?

 

For the sake of argument, sure. It's largely rhetorical, but if you have an answer, I'm open to hearing it. I'm not saying people won't conjure reasons for it, and I'm sure plenty of people have reasons to explain why they respect it.

But as far as why it deserves respect is something different. I think a lot of the respect it has is purely because it's a Ferrari. If it had a Lotus badge on it, everyone would probably agree that it's heavy and underpowered, and not wildly deserving of respect.

To be clear, I think there's a massive difference between respect and appreciation. The cars are deserving of tons of appreciation, adoration, regard, or what have you. I'll also wait for a pedant to tell me that some of those share meanings with respect, but that's just looking to argue the point and not looking at what I am attempting to say.

They say respect is earned. So, why does the 308 deserve respect? I asked the question as a challenge. I'm not outright saying it doesn't deserve respect, but I'm certainly interested in hearing why one might say it deserves it.

 

I suppose that if you don't stop to pick up the bits and pieces that are gonna get scraped and knocked off on the route you might be able to keep up. We usually don't get much past 100.

 

You are aware that splitters can be removed to drive on the street, right? And you’re aware I plan on driving the car on the street?

 

OK, you want laughable, just look at your claimed 911 SC weights. 2320??!! Pure fiction! Since you wanted to stick with the fiction, I did 5 minutes on Google - found multiple sources from owners, such as a thread from 2006 on Pelican Parts forum that you should appreciate 911 SC weight and HP ?. To start with, this post #2 says "PCA rules show the minimum weight for all SC's to be 2552 pounds. I would guess with accessories that weight could go up 200-300 pounds."

Post #4 says "a factory SC won't weigh 2550#...2750 is closer to reality. I had to ditch a lot of crap out of my car to get it below 2600#"

Post #7 references a Vancouver Porsche meet where a lot of members had their cars weighed, and accounted for fuel load to come up with dry weight and full fuel weight. The relevant numbers:

measured weight kg | model | % fuel on board | owner | dry weight kg (lbs) | curb weight kg (lbs)

Measured weight is self explantory. Dry weight is my calculation for your car with no fuel. Curb weight is my calculation for your car with a full tank of fuel.

I assumed 0.9 kg/L for fuel , and 60 L fuel tanks.. There are 2.205 lbs in a kg Here we go:

1280 | 86 911 coupe | 66% | rob | 1244 (2743) | 1298 (2862)

1280 | 87 911 coupe | 25% | jorian | 1267 (2793) | 1320 (2911)

1220 | 83 911 targa | 50% | won | 1202 (2650) | 1238 (2730)

1340 | 82 DP935 | 75% | jeff | 1300 (2867) | 1354 (2984)

1220 | 82 911 coupe | 75% | jason | 1180 (2602) | 1234 (2720)
​

The very lightest, zero fuel load, 911SC was 2602 lbs. Your zero fuel 308 GTB was 3160 with a spare tire. That's a MAXIMUM difference of 558 lbs, and according to the Porsche guys themselves, that's the lightest possible 911 SC, "2750 is closer to reality". Now you're at a 410 lb difference.

So, your claim: "A 911 from the same period is some 7-800lbs lighter in weight, and that's still a fully-optioned, comfortable, comparable car." - ********.
Your claim: "Stating a 700lb weight difference between the two is objective and fair." ********. Not remotely objective, nor fair. You've chosen to pull numbers out of your ass to back up your piggy claim. While you figure a 10% difference is negligible and no big deal (what the hell, right? Your Honda motor dynos at 633 bhp, let's call it 700! Close enough as to be the same thing, you insist!), Your 308 GTB at 3160 is 558 lbs heavier than the lightest actual measured 911SC at 2602 lbs, is 21.4% heavier. If your 700 lb claim were true, that would make your 308 28.4% heavier than a 2460 lb 911SC (and you've often rounded up the 700-800 claim to 800, so that makes your 308 33.9% heavier than the fictional 3360 lb 911SC). More realistically, the Porsche guys say a fully optioned, comfortable, comparable car is more like 2750, and the weight difference of 410 lbs to your 308 is only 14.9%.

You figure being 14.9% heavier is the same as claiming that it's a piggy 33.9% heavier? Or might you agree that's a nonsense claim, pretty much well into the ******** territory? Sure, play fast and loose with weight claims to laugh it up with your viewers about the piggy 308. What's next, inflating your HP claims by 19% too?

 

I guess you don’t know the history behind the 308 and the factory in Maranello, you may believe this or not but the truth is, if it wasn’t for the 308, there won’t be a Ferrari today.

 

Aw, bud.

You’re missing the forest for the trees.

Even if I concede and say you’re 100% right...

410lbs heavier than a 911 is still sad. Just super sad. I’m embarrassed for the 308 on that account.

The 308 is a heavy car. Sorry bud. You’re still allowed to like it.

I don’t have it in me to actually dissect your post and explain why you’re “on one” so I’ll let you have the 410lb figure because it still makes my point valid. The 308 goes oink oink oink.

 

Does that mean the car deserves respect though, as a vehicle?

 

Then there's the credibility aspect, where if someone wants to be taken seriously you'd expect them to at least try to be accurate, and not just play fast and loose with numbers to try to make a point that they've decided in advance will play well to their audience.

Want to look at power/weight ratios for 308 vs 911SC in 1981? US spec... 14.4 lbs/hp for the 180 hp, 2600 lb 911. 15.4 lbs/hp for your 205 hp 3160 lb 308. Unfortunately the GTBi at 205 emissions-crippled hp was the weakest of all the 308s. Go back to 1976 when it was 255 hp, even at the same weight, it's at 12.3 lbs/hp - but the 308 was maybe 2700 lbs, so that's 10.5 lbs/hp. Excellence mag says a 1976 911S was 2370 lbs curb weight (maybe that's where you were getting these 2320 lb curb weights??), and was 175 hp - 13.5 lbs/hp. Hmm, a decided advantage to the 308 vs 911 in 1976. Move to the improved quattrovalvole 308 in 1983, it had 230 hp USA and your 3160 lb, for 13.7 lb/hp. The 1984 911 Carrera was 207 hp for 2756 lbs, 13.3 lb/hp. Pretty damn close - so the 80-82 308s were the least competitive against their 911 counterparts, but overall, the 308 was, despite your desperate claims, pretty competitive.

As for why the 308 should get respect? Maybe for perhaps being the best sports car in the opinion of one of America's greatest racing drivers? Unless you want to tell us how Bob Bondurant's opinion isn't worth consideration...

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