458 or 488

Yeah, and do that to a 488 and what do you get? If both have an ECU mod or piggyback, and that exhaust, you think that 600 bhp will do anything against the 760 bhp of the 488?

 

It was not meant as a challenge to Italiafan, just a bit of banter

No dice. Here's the thing that actually sets the 488 apart a bit. I have chased my own Pista in the 488 on a good day where tyre temps got up. There was fresh Cup 2 shoes on both cars. The 488 is so composed and well balanced on roads with lesser surfaces than tracks, and it had zero issues driving with the Pista. Furthermore, the488 was more relaxed to drive. We were on our way to the track so a pretty interesting comparison actually. When we got on the smoother track, the Pista demolished the 488, so on a track there's no contest. This was with stock alignment on both cars. Now imagine how that translate to the 458 vs. 488. If a Pista has its hands full in those conditions, do you think a 458 would stand a chance? It's all great with stiff suspension and darty steering that gives you a visceral feel, but the car needs to be smooth and composed to be fast. It's no different on the track. A fast race car that is properly on the money for the track it runs, is such a pleasure and shockingly comfy. Hot and loud yes, and kerbs are rough, but on the track surface it should be like butter. The Pista is good for most stuff including the Ring, but it still is stiff enough to make it a bit nervous on really uneven ground, especially when paired up with the silly darty factory front end alignment.

 

From numerous posts of yours I gather you are a semi-pro driver, if not actually a full-fledged pro and so what you say with regards to our outcomes is likely very accurate. But, take an average to slightly above average driver on a road course track, that isn’t defined by pure power—like Daytona, and pit him against the same with one in 458 and other in 488 and I’d be very confident that both cars will “see each other” on the track. In fact, do the same with 458 vs. 911 GT3 or 488 and GT3 and I’d expect similar results. I’m not saying one isn’t technically faster than the other on paper, but in real life, with real “normal” drivers either on roads or reasonable tracks then the delta becomes very small. So small that I would consider the differences “insignificant” when you allow for the variation in driver’s skills.
That is my only point.

 

No worries whatsoever my friend, we’re good. All fun discussions by true Ferraristi!

 

As an average driver I've driven both 458 and 488 (OK, I admit far more time in the 488) and I know for sure my pace with the 458 is desperately (even ) slower than with the 488.
Actually the narrow power band of the 458 could be a higher handicap on a twistier track, so it's not just about a straight line power advantage for the 488.
And typically a 911 GT3 struggles to keep pace with a 488 on road tyres, the tyres advantage of the GT3 does not completely make up for its power deficit - so I can only imagine a 488 on Cup tyres would easily walk away from a GT3 (although that's speculation here, my 488 is on road tyres).
Of course all these cars are close enough so that a better driver would be faster in any of them.
For me there is no debate that the 488 is significantly faster than the 458, and when / if speed is not that important the 458 is overkill and has nothing really special to offer. I currently have a 488 and a 550 Maranello : the 488 for speed (if money were no object, I'd have a Pista or F8 instead) and the manual V12 for classic emotion, and I don't see any space nor purpose for a 458. I know it's controversial specially here but that makes arguing more funny...

 

Surely the v8 n/a sound makes it special

 

This vulgar shouting is nothing compared to a V12 music

 

Excuse me! What about the R8’s that go on these spirited drives as well?

 

One looks and sounds lame, but is very quick and newer.
Pick your poi

IDK...they are different. But in the drivers seat, the 458 is more present and pleasing. As a bystander 20ft away, the V12 takes it.

 

Personnally I'm not attracted by the 458 noise - it's merely "volume" to me, not real quality. Actually two things really defined the 458 when I first drove it (I had a 599 GTB at that time): the noise, that seemed to be a desperate way to get noticed, and the DCT, that was a true revelation compared to the robotized F1 gearbox. Third thing was the lack of power over the rev range (which is the translation of the lack of torque...)

 

Once you reach a certain level, the driver becomes the limiting factor.

I remember I read an article once where 4 guys each took out Yamaha R6's (600cc) and R1's (1000cc) out at Laguna Seca and turned in laps. Having owned a modified R1 myself and raced them against R6's on the street, I can tell you first hand that an R1 will peel the skin right off the R6 to the point where it's just embarrassment between stop lights - not even close. Yet, on the track (for the article) 3 out of 4 riders were faster around Laguna Seca on the R6; only 1 rider was faster on the R1.

When they asked him why he felt the other 3 riders were slower on the R1 but faster on the far less powerful R6's, he replied something like, "Maybe the other 3 need to find their balls"

That's no joke. On my R1, after modifying it and putting carbon fiber wheels on and dropping nearly 20 lbs off the bike, it ended up terrifyingly fast. It actually made it more difficult to ride it at WOT and more dangerous on the street. I finally just sold it, while I still had all my limbs attached.

The point here is that even though the F8 or Pista might be faster and more powerful, you need a certain level of skill to apply that power without killing yourself. The only thing allowing that to happen currently is all the electronics on the cars. On my 458, I used to drive it mostly in CT OFF mode; not sure I would do that in the 488.

When I had the 458 vs. the 488, the 488 really had more power than was needed as far as I was concerned. In a straight line [especially away from stop lights], the 488 is a blast. But at high speeds on the highway and in light traffic, I felt more connoted driving the 458 at all times; never felt like that in the 488. It had so much power that it was more like trying to handle my R1 at WOT or like trying to drive a twisty road in a dragster. Not overly so, but there was definitely a slight an element of brute force with power delivery in the 488 that I didn't really care for. The shifts at redline were jarring in the 488 whereas the 458 were much sharper (although I think someone did mention Ferrari changed the tuning in the 488 with regard to the shifts, but who knows; maybe someone can chime in). But when I drove the 488 on the track at Laguna Seca, the "bah, bah, bah" shifts were something even the test drivers were joking about. I asked one of them for their honest opinion between the 458 and 488 and everyone just danced around the answer.

At the end of the day, with any car, you have to decide what works best for you. Do you want a car that "wins" by one second on a track in Italy that you'll never be allowed to drive on? Is better bluetooth connectivity a high priority? Or do you want a car that is fun as hell to road trip in and also sounds amazing and handles city traffic with ease - albeit with slightly less power. For me, something balanced and enjoyable is the key when it comes to a daily driver.

The 458 is really hard to beat as an all around Ferrari to enjoy on public roads. That's why prices are so firm, while prices on the 488 continue to slip.

Ray

 

Cars with more torque down low always feel faster, but it doesn't always mean they are (although in this case both are true).

When I was younger and building motors, I had this Chrysler that I modified a lot. I used to drive it and clock 0-60 to see how different modifications were adding power. I remember this one time [not at band camp] I installed a lager camshaft and then took the car out to test drive it. Initially (before doing the 0-60 runs), I was somewhat alarmed because the car felt noticeably slower driving around. I thought maybe I had installed the camshaft wrong or made a bad choice with lift and/or duration or something else was off.

But once I arrived at the deserted road where I did the 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs, I was really shocked by the timed results. The car was a full second faster from 0-60 with the new cam, even though it felt slower to me. This was back in 1985 and I think the 0-60 time dropped from something like 8.1 or 8.2 seconds to more around 6.9 or 7.1 seconds. I couldn't believe my eyes; at first I thought I was working the stopwatch wring. I mean, back then Porsche was bragging in their TV ads about "60 in 6" and here my little car was nearly as fast. That car surprised a lot of people around town.

Anyway, the next day I called the guys at Direct Connection (the race parts division for Chrysler) and asked them why the car felt slower but actually was much faster? They explained to the 19 year old me that the camshaft I had installed moved the torque curve up higher but also allowed the motor to breath better and make more power. They also explained that "peppy cars with a lot of torque down low" sell better to the average driver, because they feel faster during test drives and around town, which causes people to buy them more.

I think Ferrari has figured this out also. The 488 is a literal rocket-ship off the line, which must really get allocations after test drives. By comparison, something like the 355 actually feels a bit sluggish off the line, although once you get the RPM's up, then the motor really comes to life. Torque down low helps sells cars; have you noticed lately that Ferrari dealers are practically begging you to come in and test drive cars now? Back in the 90's, test driving a Ferrari was next to impossible. These days, correct me if I'm mistaken, an F8 test drive is pretty much standard practice isn't it?

Ray

 

Since power is the product of torque by speed, more torque at specified rev is actually nothing more and nothing less than more power. In the end only power matters, but since typically only the max power is quoted, the torque is an indication of what the power is outside of the max power window.
Regarding test drives, I bet it has more to do with the loss of exclusivity of Ferrari - different production scales imply different marketing methods.

 

Torque is the rotational expression of force; so the two are forever interrelated. But since wheels are involved here, more torque down low translates to better / more felt acceleration - which sells cars.

Good point. Probably very true!

Ray

 

Sorry! A minor oversight my friend...I’ll bring the 16M soon...promise!

 

I had a 550, Grigio Titanio over Bordeaux, fabulous GT car, beautiful to behold and drive.

 

Exactly. I think the equation is something like:
(Engine h.p.)x(suspension)x(chassis)x(tires)x(brakes)x(driver skill)x4(size of driver’s balls)= lap time

 

Having driven both a 488 GTB and 458, I would choose the 458. Regardless of which car is technically faster around Fiorino by tenths of seconds, the driving experience of the 458 is just more fun, animalistic, and jaw dropping. The Pista is another story.


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On a real road with bumps and flaws, no chance for the 458. Even if we forget about the power and availability of torque, thanks to which, among other things, the 488 driver can focus more on steering. 488 is much more stable, requires less work at the same speed. As a result, it becomes difficult to drive the 458 from a certain speed and you want to slow down, while there is still a lot of reserve in the 488. Sounds like a 911 gt3 versus a Turbo, but the 488 isn't nearly as boring as the Turbo. So the 488 is more of a GT2. And 458 fans, remember that the 488's suspension and steering are the same as on the divine 458 Speciale. Plus updated electronics = better road handling and powerslide abilities.

 

Yes, but you have to decide what you want, the best museum piece or the best car, and what you want from it - drive or sell in 30 years.

488 is better in every way except 9K redline and more clean classy elegant design

 

Museum piece? My 458S has 45K miles, my friend’s has 65K miles...these are living museums! Oh, and we have many other cars...but there is a certain magic in the 458 series.

 

Depends on who you are. Not for me. I find the monotone noise of the 458 pretty meh. The 488 might not be as loud, but I like the fact that it has a lot going on. It makes it sound alive and breathing. But that's just me.

 

Sound is in the ear of the listener.
I think the 458S sounds amazing and varied throughout its rev range from low-rev baritone to a screaming wail at the top end. Nothing compares, however, to my F12 and now 812; V12’s rule, everything else is secondary. Period.

 

Having owned both and still have a 488 i really love both cars. However in my opinion the 488 is a massive step up on the 458 in nearly all subjective ways. It feels like an improved Speciale with a couple of Turbos strapped on. To be fair to Ferrari it seems insulting to suggest that the replacement for the 458 is somehow inferior.
Damping and brakes are particularly improved on the 488. Ferrari don't go backwards and the F8 is a further step forwards albeit less so then the 488 over the 458. Both great cars but 488 is in a different league IMHO. The 458 will always remain special due to being the last NA V8 but from a driving POV things move on with each new generation.

 

All good points...each of them unique in their own way.

That’s why for now, I’m keeping my f430 spider. It’s pretty special and. I really think I would miss that rear glass over the engine...so unique.




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