348 348 thoughts and questions

Morning Folks!

I’m casually starting to research the next Ferrari, and I keep going back to a friend’s 348 Spider that he’s owned for about 10yrs now. He meticulous in record keeping and maintenance on his car collection, and his Ferrari shows it.

His car shows just under 15,000 miles and he drives it weekly putting about 30 to 40 miles a month on it depending on weather and such.

I am leaning on buying his car later this year over others I’ve seen, but what worries me is the last major was done over 9yrs ago, but only about 3,000 miles (roughly) since it was done.

Obviously I’d do a PPI, but knowing the car, the owner, and the history, I don’t think the PPI would find anything I don’t know. However, a compression check and an independent expert set of eyes will be welcomed on this purchase.

My main question is the major service being so many years ago. Is this of major concern knowing the car is driven regularly and not sitting, or should this be a point of negotiation since it’s way past the recommended time frame? The car is stunning, and if I need to do a major once I get it, at least I’d know it was done correctly and there isn’t any other issues to deal with.

Would you steer away from a good car that needs a major and find one that’s already good in that department? Is the time since last major a big deal or is mileage a better indication? I’d like to hear some thoughts on this one.

cheers
Dave

 

I'd not shy away from it because of it needing a major. It would provide a 5-7k "discount" on open market pricing, IMO. It is also a good opportunity for you as the new owner to set a baseline for the car mechanically.

 

It is worth a great deal to know the car (and the owner). I would certainly go for it and personally I wouldn't bother with a PPI either. You know it needs a major service so I would put the money to that instead. Having said that, I'm not seeking to dissuade you from a PPI, just stating what I would do.

 

What about interim minor / oil change ?

If it has them more recent then that's a plus and would decrease any concern about the major being late since effectively there would have been preventive eyes on the car - conversely what else would a 'meticulous' owner ignore if there's nothing for nine years

 

Thanks guys. He’s fixed a few minor issues that have popped up over the years, and does the routine oil changes as well. All minor service items or whatever needs to be fixed gets fixed. He’s not a cheapskate when it comes to service on his cars.

Good thoughts. Thank you.

cheers
Dave

 

Sounds like a great opportunity. If the car is as you say and you know the owner well, take it in for a major when you get it and do what’s needed plus whatever you feel you want done.

Personally I’d prefer this approach as there are always a number of “whilst your there” jobs that might not get done if a major is being done to support the sale of a car. Plus you can get done any jobs you want done on top.

Good luck

 

He’s not a cheapskate...yet he’s on year 9 of a 3 year service interval.

With that being said, I wouldn’t do the 3 years either, but 9 is getting excessive. It’s been mentioned many times on this forum, it’s not the belt that’s the issue with the engine out service, it’s EVERYTHING ELSE in there that could be an issue.

I just bought a 348 in November, last major was 10 years and 2,500 miles ago. I drove it 900 miles home directly to a shop for its service. That may not have been the wisest thing...but here I sit anyways.

The car needs an immediate service upon purchase, and I’d skip the PPI as well if you know the vehicle and owner this well. You’re looking at $6,5000-$8,000 on the service depending where you bring it, that HAS to be part of the negotiation as it’s an immediate expense that can’t be put off. That’s exactly how I negotiated my purchase, you can do the service, or you can take the average price of a service at an Indy off the price.

 

I agree but not on the price ding. You don't get + 5-7k because you just did a major and you won't get a price ding because you haven't done a major. The price of the car is the price of the car. IMO knowing the owner and history is more important than anything else. That car has a premium to you and no one else yet your friend will probably give you a great deal vs. tire kickers he has to price high to negotiate to the final price. Buying that car is a win win. I would only do a PPI on a 355. It's the model with all the potential problems. The 355 poisoned the well for all other ferraris. Also the PPI can be often really worthless. If you really "need" a ppi you are better off buying a new car with a warrantee.

 

I've always been in the school buy a car that needs a major and get it done under your vigilance given the choice. In 20 years here I've seen many threads of "just bought a car and claimed this was done that was done... but cost me another $20k right after purchase".

there also seems to be many more "my belt just snapped 3 months after my major" threads than "my 15 year old belt finally gave out" threads.

don't live in fear of the service hysteria that is perpetuated here. 5-7 years is what most of the 80's and 90's vintage owners go by these days. Yes these cars need to be maintained but not nearly at the OCD rate people claim. Problem is that that's all (mostly) uneducated buyers hear or know (service service service) so the cycle continues because of the fear unjustly attached to unserviced cars.

9 years and 3K miles. I live in MN (short season) but if I bought this car I'd drive it another 3 years before i started thinking about pulling the engine. But saying that I'll be labeled as a improper or lazy owner because others have to justify the $8k they blow un necessarily every 3 years.

 

I agree on several points you all make. And I also disagree that not having a fresh major service HAS to be negotiated off the price. It’s a good thing to mention to justify a better deal, but it’s up to the seller whether he gives a rip if he sells the car to you or someone that may not care as much as you do. But a good negotiating too, none the less.

Great thoughts guys. We’re headed down Thursday to spend time with him and his wife and take another look at the car. I sold him my Viper several years ago and just helped him sell it a few months ago, so he owes me dinner!

cheers
Dave

 

Being the car has a good Pedegree is always a plus but remember you are buying a used car a PPI before a sale is for negotiations and hopefully makes you aware of what you are getting into but anything can happen after purchasing
if you like the car and knowing the owner and history (only for this car) just skip the PPI and plan on a major service after you purchase the car it’s almost like starting off fresh headed
There is no warranty from the previous owner so it’s all on you outside of new or buying from Ferrari dealer these are the chances you are taking



Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Did he do a PPI on the Viper you sold him?

 

No, he didn’t. But to be fair, there’s really not much on a Gen II Viper that needed to be checked other than what I had done to it which are the common Gen II items. Plus, I was two garage condos over from him so he was able to see everything I did to the car from start to finish.

I wouldn’t mind bringing it in just to check over the engine and transmission at Ferrari of Houston, but everything else I’m pretty sure I can figure out what’s needed and not. It’s the apprehension of buying due to expense of that initial major, but Hey? I own two planes so really, what’s expensive anymore!?!?!

cheers
Dave

 

I don't think this is solid reasoning, but that's just my opinion. No, a car isn't worth x amount of dollars more because you actually did the maintenance on it, i agree with that. But it can certainly be worth less knowing that it needs $6,000-$8,000 in maintenance right off the bat.

Let's say the car is a driver at $60,000 and that's the top of the 348 market. Because it's just been serviced the car is not setting a new market standard at $68,000...it's just had the proper maintenance done! However, if I'm choosing between the exact 2 vehicles, but one is in need of $8,000 worth of work...I'm not paying $60,000 for that one.

So no, the price of the car, is not, the price of the car. The price of a well maintained car with a somewhat recent service is one price. The price of the same car absolutely needing a service is another price. Not every car is the same price and there are reasons for it...an automatic $8,000 bill would be one of those reasons, we're not talking about an oil change.

 

I'm sorry this seems to be terrible advice and you're contradicting yourself! On the one hand you're saying "uneducated buyers" are so worried about service, but you've neglected to mention, or educate, a new buyer on one of the reasons to get a service...it's the other stuff that needs looked at and addressed with the engine out, it has mostly nothing to do with the belt itself. Telling somebody to just buy this particular car and drive it, I don't know why you would say that to a potential new owner. You're acting like there's a Chevy 350 behind the seat you can get rebuilt for $500 or find sitting on any street corner in America that you can buy for $1,500!

I wouldn't call you a lazy owner, but I would most certainly call you an improper owner for giving advice to a prospective buyer that you would drive that particular vehicle he's looking at for, what would turn out to be, 12 years and x amount of miles before thinking about doing a service.

He's a new owner, he has no idea what's needing updated service wise or what actually needs attention. Start fresh, we're not talking year 4 here...it's been 9 years, NINE! Get the service done and start off ownership on the right foot. If you want to wait 7 years for the next service, most here won't have much to say about that.

I was just in the same boat as the OP 4 months ago. I bought a 348 that had the service done 10 years and 3,500 miles ago. I drove the car directly from the dealership to an indy mechanic to get the service done. Fence needed addressed as it had been nicking the timing belt tearing the edge, bearings were trash, water pump was leaking, oil was leaking from somewhere, little things that needed addressed here and there. I'd be really upset had somebody, especially with a post count over 5,000, told me "Ehh, drive it another 3 years, don't be so OCD and uneducated, what could go wrong". I'd most likely be buying a new engine sometime in that 3 years...that's what would have gone wrong.

 

Yes, I see your logic, and agree with some points but yes, the price of the car IS the price of the car. You can negotiate and knock off whatever you think is reasonable and I agree with your logic on a offering less knowing the car needs major service. However, the the seller of the car will simply say "No thank you" to your offer and sell it to the next guy.

I'm sure you have sold cars in your lifetime, so you understand the price for what you're selling. If there's negotiation room, then great and so be it. I've sold many where despite "It needs this" and "it needs that" type of negotiations, I stuck to my asking price and sold it without taking less.

With a known figure out what a major costs on these things, I'll go in with that in mind on a final price and hope we agree on it. But at the end of the day, if he wants X and I'm not willing to buy it at that price, they'll be someone behind me that will.

Good thoughts Johnny and others, and I'm looking at it tomorrow!

Cheers
Dave

 

but...thats the deal. No such thing as 2 identical used cars. And there is a huge amount of turd polishing. I know a guy who sells ferraris "serviced". They call a lock n swap belt change a "major service". There is no ferrari definition of major service. So are you getting what you pay for? What about 2 identical cars but one serviced by a diy guy vs a shop? What if the major is from the king of RTV? I know diy guys who know more about their model than a shop who knows a lot about many models. What about 2 "identical" cars but red tan vs. Red blk? There is just no such thing as identical.

 

Yes Dave, like you, I've done the same...the rear bumper needs painted, the radio isn't working right, it's about time for the brakes etc. Never did I have the conversation of...Everything is great on the car it just needs $8,000 worth of xxxx!

That's the difference to me in this situation and in the one I just did in November. We're not talking about brake pads and rotors or even a set of tires...we're talking about $8,000. Clearly money is different for you and I as I do not own two planes, however, any time I'm looking at $8,000 I think anybody would pause for a second.

 

And I agree with that in general. Let's say for instance that a Ferrari dealership has a freshly serviced car and a car that hasn't had service for the last 10 years right next to each other. They are both $60,000 Red/Tan 25,000 miles...which are you buying? Now one is Red/Tan the other is White/Tan and the white one is the one you want...are you still paying $60,000 or negotiating the price as you're about to spend $68,000 on an "identical" vehicle outside of the color?

I don't think anybody would give the dealership $60,000 for the white Ferrari and then have them pull it around back for another $8,000 when they could just take the Red one for $60,000. But maybe that's just me.

Yes, you make great points...all things are not always equal. But sometimes they are, or close enough. We're not talking about an oil change and tires, it's $8,000.

 

I said if I bought this car I'd have no qualms driving it another 3 years. He can do what he wants..."I said if I bought it"

My main point is these cars are not nearly as fragile as people like to let on. Owners love to sadistically talk about how much is cost to own these and I spent $10k on this or that knob, part or repair. These cars have maintenance requirements and can get expensive if things go wrong no doubt. But they are not made of sugar and ferry dust.

I in no way meant to call the OP uneducated. I meant that new buyers who come into the market are often overly concerned with service because owners make such a big deal about (proudly) spending their money on them (services) so the car will be saleable to buyers....its a self fulfilling cycle.

I don't wish to contribute to yet another service debate.

 

Well that's easy. The red on black is worth more.

 

Let me be abundantly clear...I'm not the guy that can afford a plane, let alone two. I can't afford a new Ferrari off the showroom floor. I'll never have an F40 or an Enzo. I'm actually a simple guy that LOVES automobiles, with an affinity skewing towards older "classic" vehicles. I grew up in the 80's watching Magnum and Miami Vice with my parents. I'm the typical guy in his early 40's that had Ferrari and Lamborghini posters on his wall as a child. I'm not "proud" to spend money on a service, and I'm not insinuating that you were directing that comment towards me in particular as I know there are plenty of guys that show up to "Cars and Coffee" decked out in Ferrari gear from head to toe nut swinging about what they can afford and what they can spend on services. I'm not that guy! My wife stays home and raises our son that came into the picture 15 years later than he should have, so it's just my income. I won't be tacky and talk about what I make, but it's under 150k. I've flipped various sports cars over the last 15 years to end up here with a 348 Ferrari dream free and clear from the money I've profited over the years from the trades and flips.

Why did I just say all that when it's nobody's business and probably nobody cares? I had to spend the money now on the service (and I only spent $5,000 through an indy mechanic) because if the engine blows, and it could anyways, I literally have a paperweight on my hands! I can't afford $16,000 or whatever it is to buy another, so it will sit for years in my garage until I have the money together to get it rebuilt or buy a replacement.

I bought the 348 because it has a reputation to the "educated" for being a rather sturdy car mechanically, I can deal with electronic costs...I just don't have Ferrari engine money lol.

That's really what my post was in reference too. If you're sitting on a "major" that old and you know damn well you can't afford giant repair bills due to, and I'll call it what it is, neglect, then get the service and have that peace. If you're good with 12 year service intervals and can afford to take that risk, more power to you!

 

I think the only thing guys get emotional about are cars. There is so much that goes on beyond the stats. I know a lot about Ferraris. I know that there are some shops if they did the major service yesterday that I'm doing the major service again tomorrow...if it is my car. Knowledge is always power and there are no absolutes. But yes often the buyer is just playing checkers and does not realize the game is chess.

 

This hypothetical is pointless because a Ferrari Dealership won't have two models side by side, one with and one without a major, for the same price.