ManLife - The Army is Developing a New Bullet: Here's What We Know | FerrariChat

ManLife The Army is Developing a New Bullet: Here's What We Know

Discussion in 'Social Media' started by rob lay, Jun 6, 2021.

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  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The plastic case ammo has been in the works for a while. I think it was developed by a company here in the Austin area. It was to be produced in 223,308 and 50BMG. It supposedly costs less (Right, when did the Pentagon ever pay a fair price for anything), weigh less and most importantly transfer far less heat to the gun cutting wear and allowing more sustained fire. I got in touch to see if it or components could be bought but no non military sales were envisioned.
     
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  2. vandevanterSH

    vandevanterSH Formula 3
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    True Velocity ammunition, Garland, TX....

    https://www.tvammo.com/
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Cool, thanks. I guessed they changed their mind.
     
  4. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 Veteran
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    I assume the chamber takes the pressure that the plastic can't?

    And that it's not reloadable? Says "recyclable" so...

    30% weight reduction is helpful...
     
  5. vandevanterSH

    vandevanterSH Formula 3
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    "And that it's not reloadable? "
    ******
    “Are True Velocity’s cases reloadable? Will reloaders be able to buy these composite cases as components?”

    The short answers are “no” and “no.” When I challenged company leadership about this, their response revealed a complicated situation. Currently, their ammunition is being evaluated by the U.S. military and its allies for all the benefits you can imagine, particularly weight savings and performance consistency. To add, True Velocity doesn’t want to aid our enemies by providing them with a reloadable component that could be picked up on the battlefield. Once the cartridge is fired, the spent case is useless to them."

    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/true-velocity-sierra-bullets-team-up-to-produce-ammo/372002
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The only part of any case that needs to handle pressure is the head around the extractor recess and the ejector recess to some degree. If you notice the Velocity case is steel in this area.
     
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  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I find that claim rather hollow. If this stuff really does achieve all the goals claimed the Russians and Chinese have already reverse engineered it and is planning to supply it to any client state willing to make trouble for us.

    Sounds more like they are protecting their market which is perfectly understandable but is unwilling to say so. It could be the greatest 308 GI Ball ammo on earth but I see no use for it in the civilian market with a known garbage M80 147gr standard bullet. Make a version of the M118LR with a 175Gr Matchking and it is a different story. Hence my question about components.
     
  8. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 Veteran
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    Interesting article. TY

    The Sierra guys sound like they're on their game. Bullets. Hi Tech.
    Who knew?
     
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  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Sierra has been at the top of the heap for a long time. Berger is a small company and makes great but expensive stuff. Sierra has been the primary supplier for match and sniper bullets to the US military for a long time. Hornady has in recent years made a few good offerings too.
     
  10. vandevanterSH

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  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I would think there would be some serious thermal expansion issues effecting reliability and accuracy.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thermal expansion of what?
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 Rifledriver, Jun 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
    If they were smart, and they probably are they made that round with a 308 head and near 308 body diameter so all thats needed to convert existing guns is a barrel. M14's and 21's. All the Remington 7.62 bolt guns, any 7.62 Saws that may exist, M240 etc.
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Part of the promise and probably the most important is the case transfers less heat to the gun. Quite a bit less so like I said, thermal expansion of what?
     
  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    We don't know! No one I know has ever shot a plastic cased bullet. What we do know even at the lowly civilian level during high rates of fire competition like steel matches (guns get hot!) that is is extremely difficult to produce "race guns" that don't foul or jam. The out of the box sloppy plastic glock is an amazing tool in stock class competition. During a competition my stock glocks will always fire on command with any commercial ammo and all reloads I have come accross. You just can't say that about tighter tolerance guns and raceguns by famous gunsmiths using parts that were never designed to work together. The commercial brass cartridge is a near flawless thing who's technology has been refined and perfected over 100 years. You never hear guys say I can shoot federal but not winchester like you hear guys say their gun does not do well with reloads. Add in plastic cases and what does that do to reliability and accuracy? What about mixed material expansion and contraction rates? Even if the plastic transfers less heat does the little heat there expand the case more for more drag on extraction? Or is there less drag on extraction because some plastics like delrin have inherant lubricity? We just don't have enough information at the consumer level. We have no idea what will happen and so the military will test to see if it ticks off all the boxes on their compromise list.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I have some experience here. One of my M14s has over 20,000 rounds in its log book. I have a number of competition rifles that have been shot a lot. I had a big pile of worn out rifle barrels I threw away at my last move. It will not be an issue. Last thing on my mind.


    I guess the several hundred thousand rounds already shot in testing don't count?
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That depends if the test results meet the military's compromises. Big to the media is a couple boxes of 9mm. Big to an enthusiast might be 20k rounds. Homeland security by itself has 1.6 billion rounds. So is several hundred thousand rounds of testing a big number to the US military? I have no clue.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/?sh=5390d9e1624b
     
  18. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Where would the heat go? The entire barrel already heats up, and this won't change with a polymer case. A brass case actually takes some heat out with it when ejected. I'm genuinely curious about the claim (by the manufacturer).
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    These have been around for a few years already to use in conventional existing weapons so use and testing has already been extensive. Not sure if it was known and an intended improvement or only discovered as a by product but we now know a great deal of heat is imparted on the gun through the large surface area of the case. and on closed bolt guns conversely back to the unfired case from the gun. Brass is a great conductor of heat. That is why machine guns are designed to fire from an open bolt. I had read a year or two ago some of the figures. Never bothered to remember it but it was a substantial reduction. No question barrels get hot, real hot and they still will but from experience I can tell you the closer you get to the chamber the hotter it is.The very hottest part, the throat is directly in front of the case. Most guns are air cooled. The long skinny part out front will be cooled the best but that is not where it is needed most so any reduction in the area of the case and throat is important. A reduction in heat, even if it is only 10% will make barrels last longer and allow more fire in a given amount of time. When you say some heat is taken away by the case...the case is a big source of the heat, not a recipient of it. If it is plastic, it put less in the gun to start with.
     
  20. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed, and the longer the case remains chambered the more heat transfer. For a semi-auto this is substantially less than for a bolt action.

    Cyclic rate was as big of, or bigger, factor in open bolt design for machine guns.

    Yes and no. The combustion of the powder results in a finite amount of heat, and this is independent of the case material. The fact that an extracted brass casing is hot says that the casing is a significant factor in absorbing a portion of that heat rather than the chamber/barrel. So again, the question is where does that heat that was absorbed by a brass case go with a polymer case?
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    B. It allows a little better cooling between bursts and prevents cook offs.

    C. Well the case acts as a transfer agent. Yes, it obviously does not create the heat. Energy that is not conducted via the case goes out the muzzle. Sure, some is conducted to the barrel by its mere presence but it still reduces total absorbed by the gun. The plastic is an inferior transfer agent compared to brass. Compared to the hot gas and the bullet itself even in an open bolt gun the brass spends more time in the gun. In any closed bolt design that difference is very great.
     
  22. vandevanterSH

    vandevanterSH Formula 3
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    ****
    Heat has to "go" somewhere....MG 42 with cycle rate of 1200 rounds/min....barrel change every 150 rounds due to heat.

    Seems like weight reduction is a priority for R&D infantry...polymer ammo. ~30% weight reduction, new FN EVOLYS machine gun, 30% weight reduction. Recently read that infantry combat load is 63 pounds, about 1/3 body weight of avg. male soldier.
     
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Though they dont really say I am sure cost and weight were driving factors and heat reduction was a by product. I think it is more a factor in automatic rifles than it is in machine guns.
     

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