360 F1 Hydraulic pump (motor) | FerrariChat

360 F1 Hydraulic pump (motor)

Discussion in '360/430' started by jerryf, May 25, 2021.

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  1. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    After a pleasant 100 mile drive this afternoon, I noticed when I parked the car that the hydraulic pump was still going. Keys were out, doors closed. It didn't sound quite right and ran for about 5 minutes before blowing the 30 amp fuse. I replaced the fuse and started the car without opening the driver door. Pump came on, ran for 15 seconds or so, sounded extremely sick and then blew the fuse. From the way the motor sounds, it has a problem and I will replace it. But....my question is really what turns the pump on? I'm thinking there must be a pressure sensor somewhere in the loop to signal some onboard computer to turn the pump on. I suspect that whatever turns the pump on is a likely root of the problem. Any suggestions are appreciated!
     
  2. craze

    craze Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2021
    1,026
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I believe a relay turns it on
    relays can stick when a load is on them and not want to spring back

    It’s probably something someone else has experienced perhaps they can offer more direction?

    I would guess motor is ok and relay is the issue, I believe a higher rated unit can be used
     
  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Definitely the relay has fused together

    Pull the fuse and don't fiddle with it until you get a new relay

    Hopefully the motor survived the constant "on" condition

    Once you replace the relay take note if on/off cycles and sound of motor (straining)!etc

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  4. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    Thanks, I'm sitting here looking to order a new motor (I'm sure its fried) and a new relay. I remain hopeful!
     
  5. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Remember once you change the relay make sure that you check the system to see if there's a reason why the motor was cycling a lot to fuse the relay

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  6. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
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    Ian Riddell
    The pressure transducer is just under the reservoir on the power unit.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The tranducer sends a pressure signal to the F1 TCU and the TCU controls the pump relay (according to the various inputs).

    Are you familiar with the Scud Ing Swiss F1 aftermarket relays which can help prevent serious problems?
     
    360 Kiwi likes this.
  7. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    Thank you! That is the item I was searching for as the root cause. There HAD to be something that actually causes the motor to run. I'm not familiar with much of anything yet, I just got this car and am used to working on the analog 328. I believe I will replace the motor, relay and the pressure transducer.
     
  8. craze

    craze Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2021
    1,026
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Michael
    If you want to bulletproof it and start over yes
    But you may be spending unnecessary $
     
  9. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    Yeah, I'm trying to bullet proof it. Just ordered the swiss relay, waiting for ALGAR to open to check on motor and transducer....big $ I'm sure, probably get ones from eBay...
     
  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    I reason i don't believe it is your pressure sensor is because it runs even after shutting car down and closing doors



    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  11. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    True, I hadn't realized that. I think I'll put off ordering the motor and pressure sensor until I try the relay. I still suspect, based on how it sounds, that I will need a pump motor. Thanks to all for the input so far.
     
  12. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,264
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    Motor is generic. Used in many other models with similar system. Many low cost OEM choices on ebay. Easy DIY change!
    Ricambi has a plug and play relay cheap. 40A.
     
    armedferret likes this.
  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
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    Ian Riddell
    If the pressure sensor was underreading all the time, is it not possible that the TCU commanded the pump to run continuously, fusing the relay contacts together?
     
  14. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Yes ..could be one of the reasons ..or a bad accumulator or loose screws or just old age

    OP needs to investigate once replacing relay ..that is just the first step ..it may not even be that ...but it is so easy to try and see if constant running subsides

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  15. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    OK, so here is this mornings status...fuse in, relay OUT, open door, motor runs and sounds fine for about ten seconds then blows fuse. Took cover off relay, it looks fine, no burning, contact moves freely. I didn't't expect it to run without the relay, must be a separate circuit for the door opening trigger. If it was som kind f short in the motor I wouldn't expect it to run before blowing the fuse. If it was the pressure transducer, I suppose it could be over-pressurizing and causing the motor to strain. I'm confused at this point.
     
  16. craze

    craze Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2021
    1,026
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Sounds like wrong relay or wiring shorted out
    There wont be a 2nd relay it’s triggered off one
     
  17. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    Definitely removed wrong relay as mentioned above .. pump will not get power when relay is removed

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
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    Ian Riddell
    Sometimes the Secondary air pump relay and the F1 pump relay are swapped around (compared to the Owners Manual). Look for the grey (?) SIEMENS relay without the 50 amp fuse below it.

    [​IMG]

    Now that I think about it... Are you sure it’s the F1 pump that is running?
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    #19 Qavion, May 26, 2021
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
  20. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    .
    Yep, that's the one
     
  21. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    According to the layout label under the cover, the F1 pump is the one on the bottom. I was told yesterday, and now you have reiterated, the relays can be reversed. I pulled the relay on the bottom, it is apparently the one on top. I will be with the car this evening and will check that relay and repeat the test. Yes, for sure it is the F1 pump that is running.
     
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  22. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    I was thinking that and was about to order a new pressure sensor.
     
  23. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA
    So, after a little vacation...back to the car and it is finally fixed. I had the relay tested before anything and it was determined to be good. So, the motor sounded bad and I replaced it. Still ran on after shutting the car off and finally blowing the fuse. No change. Thinking the pressure sensor could be giving a false reading, it was replaced to no effect. Had the relay retested and it was definitely bad. A note here...go to the older, more experienced counter guy instead of the new hire. He tested it a couple of times and it was bad. It was also hard to find. Ferrari has them for $125 but get this, BMW has them for $16. Still hard to find but I got a couple. Plugged one in and the problem is solved. I wound up shot-gunning the problem but I think the only part unnecessarily replaced was the $125 pressure sensor. I'm a happy camper and the car has been running fine. Thanks for the input folks!
     
    Qavion likes this.
  24. wbt

    wbt Karting

    Nov 28, 2014
    231
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Double check the relay they gave you has inbuilt coil flyback protection, otherwise bye-bye your very expensive TCU. If you take a picture of the top of the new relay I can confirm if it has this needed feature.
     
  25. jerryf

    jerryf Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    46
    Altoona, PA

    What do you think?

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