Valve seals equals engine out and top end rebuild?

Did you get a PPI on the Ferrari? Miles on car? Compression readings for each cylinder?
How much oil showing on the dipstick? Service records come with the 308?
Personally, I do not buy a Ferrari 308 unless it has the service records and doesn't blow a lot of smoke out the exhaust when it starts up.

 

Just a quick heads up... Parts are getting very hard to get. Valve guides for example.... Can't get em...
There's a massive breakdown in supply chain right now.

$15k... Depends on the shop really. But that's a very tight budget and things will be deferred. If you're doing the work and out sourcing, machine work... That's a good budget.

Engine R&R, head removal, recondition. And honestly since it's out.. Perfect time to address hoses and other things. It really does come down to condition and service history.

 

Why dont you buy a 308 that has a good motor, and use your money to refurbish the suspension and whatever else it needs. If these cars are cared for properly, they can do 100 K miles without blowing any smoke, my 89 328 has 104,000 miles and runs like it did with 20k .

Thank you

 

One thing that Jumps out at me is that you said “ the oil was full to level.”
Don’t remember on my 2 valve engine but on my 4. valve to check the oil you start it, let it run for a while then shut it down and wait 10 minutes then check level. Seems that anytime you check the oil level when the car‘s been sitting a while it is always below level. Makes me wonder if someone overfilled this engine? some of what I am saying here is probably incorrect because I’m going off vague memory.

 

Well, if it blew smoke as you described, and the engine oil is not considerably overfilled, you did not draw the wrong conclusions.

Strictly speaking, valve seals can be replaced without pulling cylinder heads. Whether that's a good idea depends on some other testing. If a compression test AND a leak down test showed good results, just replacing the seals is reasonable. Admittedly, the necessary access to the front cylinder head to do this is..uh...minimal.

As has been noted, these engines seem to be able to manage considerable mileage so it's quite possible that the problem is simply the seals have become brittle or cracked and no longer seal properly due to age alone.

 

Yes it is... And the odds are not exactly in your favor.
81 injected was nothing to write home about. They got neglected over time, the early carb'd ones being favored for driving and the later QV and 328 for power and refinement.
81 had engine recalls, but not all had that done. Many are oil burners, the piston of the day was also a 4 ring version, low compression.
It quickly becomes apparent that once there's something that needs attention that requires taking the engine out and apart... Best to plan on a std rebuild/refresh. You don't have to go hotrod crazy. But the costs do add up fast.

Find the best example you can of the 308, it'll cost but it's always going to be cheaper then a project one. Or one that needs a comprehensive engine service.

 

Yes, esp with the hotrod crazy.

-----> As long as its out, why not a 360 cranks, and 85 MM Nikasil liners, and bigger cams and of course hi comp pistols,and lets replace the worn syncros, and new gearbox bearings of course, and stainless valves with larger intake, and some head porting, and those webers need to be completely overhauled down to the throttle shaft bores.

Gee, the clutch and throttle cables look worn, need to be replaced, as long as the engine is out replace all the coolant lines and the oil cooler lines as well, lets clean the gas tanks inside and out as well, since the engine is out.

Hmmm, the steering rack is just little sloppy, call up TRutlands for rebuilt rack, as long as the rack is out, lets change all the suspension bushings and ball joints. New rotors also, get the calipers rebuilt, and also the master cylinder, power booster diaphragm as well since the master is out.... since we have the control arms off, the Konis should be overhauled, new CV joint boots too, but 911 boots are the same and cheaper, so we will use those.

The costs add up very fast that way. OTOH, you have an almost new car when you are done. With about 120 more HP that it came with the from the factory. Its only money, right?

Doug

 

Italian tune up?

 

How long has the car been sitting? How long since used regularly? Like most of us after sitting for periods of time there are a few grunts and growns to get us going too...

Yes the 2V engine had a history of oil consumption and blow by. 40 years later most if not all those engines have been seen to or replaced back in the day.

Lots of people here always seem to be the sky is falling, puff of smoke ...break out $20k

No question some shop is gonna tell you "ticking time bomb" unless you pay me $20k to fix it.

Could be a real issue, yes.....could be lack of use also. Drive the thing 2K miles like its supposed to be driven and if the problem still existing then lose sleep over it.

 

Not sure how you could possibly replace valve seals with the head still on the engine. It ain't like a pushrod Chevy, valve springs are inside the tappet bores.

 

The guides are quite soft and wear (mine were loose at 36k miles) which can lead to the sodium-filled exhaust valves dropping in. You can use the rope-down-the-plug-hole trick to change the stem seals but space is tight. At least with the valve springs and cap off you can wiggle the valve to check for wear.

If you can’t do the work yourself, plan to do the heads at an experienced shop and price the car accordingly. Don’t change the guides, get them lined with K-line sleeves— many shops will fit new guides the standard way and sink your valves into the seats. I still have some solid 21-4N valves (£10) and viton seals if you need some (also available from Lee at SI valves and from Ferrea.)

I have a ‘61 OTS E-type and unlike Enzo, I think the 308 is prettier.

 

Really? You've done that? I'd like to see how you get those springs off and back on again, especially the 5-8 bank.

 

This is common on 911s and to a degree these cars. Blowing a bit of smoke at startup for a car that has been sitting for a while is normal for cars this age. It can also be a bit worse during winter due to lower temperatures and contraction of tolerances.

If the puff of smoke clears quickly I would not consider it anything worthy of tearing into the engine. Get a compression and leak down test to see what is serious vs. normal for a old car.

 

Paul I haven’t done the rope trick on one of these engines and as I said, space is tight. Given that some people pull the front head in situ, it might be possible— someone who has tried it might comment. The few times I’ve done it I fabricated a lever to fit onto a stud or two with a piece of pipe to press on the caps and a hole in it to remove/replace the keepers.

I would do the rear bank first and if any guides loose, pull both heads. Tom may have decided to skip this car already.

 

This feels a far more rational response than an internet diagnosis of the engine needs stripping

 

My experience is EXACTLY the title of your thread, no internet diagnosis just reality. My advice is, unless you are capable of doing the service yourself ie pulling the engine, removing the heads etc. I would not dive into a Ferrari without a detailed service history. I had planned on doing the stem seals, complete gasket kit, water pump etc, but ended up with the heads off, 5 new guides, new head gaskets etc. My cost for parts and machining was in the 3k range and remember I’m not including labour. I would think any competent shop that actually services these cars will be in the $160-$180 per hour range so things can get expensive.
A good service history is a great insurance policy in my mind!

 

You’ve said this twice, but I’d question your base assumption that there is a “common valve guide issue” at all. I’ve owned my 308 for 8 years, have been reading the forum for 15 years, and I’ve never got the impression that valve guides are a common issue fo 308s.

For oil burning on the 80-81 injected 2 valve cars, the issue was rings and clearances, enough so that Ferrari had to replace a significant percentage of engines under warranty - but not due to valve guides. The only noteworthy valve issue, with the 2 valve engines until 82, were the sodium exhaust valves which can break. Again, no valve guide problems. Of course some engines might have guide wear due to mileage etc, but not enough to be considered a common problem on 308s. If you were talking about 355s, then definitely there was a common valve guide premature wear problem - but not for 308s.

Regards,
Gordon