basically, any 3 fobs of the same frequency ( us market or euromarket), can be made into a set, if you know how to clone a black fob. What's so hard to understand ? en?
NOOO it doesn’t because once your reprogram your immobiliser system on your car to the new Red fob, which also allows you to program the two black slave fobs, you then repeat the process using your own original red fob, which the car now thinks is a new red fob thus triggering a new learn mode, and reprogram the car back to your own original fob with your own unique PIN number. Then the other red fob no longer works on your car and you simply give it back. It’s not that hard. I’m not here to advertise www.immofixer.com but he does have a couple of great videos that clearly explain all this along with the pitfalls of using clones. Have a look and let’s us know what you think!!
Noooo not that simple because they use ‘rolling codes’ which means every time you push the button the black fob sends a different signal that the immobiliser predetermines is coming based on the previous signal sent. I posted a link to a video back on page one that explains rolling codes nicely. It is the key reason why clones don’t work properly !
I might qualify what I stated earlier by saying that cloning a ‘full set’ is different to trying to add a clone into an existing set. Not sure what the benefit of cloning a full set would be unless buying it cheaper than a std OEM set?!?!
On doing a bit more ‘research’ into cloning a whole set of Fobs the answer is still NO it won’t work. Cloning an entire set will give you the same problem 3 times. The immobiliser has 3 independent memory chanels so it can keep track of the rolling code from each of the 3 different fobs. When you clone a fob, it appears (at first press) the same as it's red fob, the immobiliser can't tell that it's a physically different fob. So the code advances by each press while the red fob is still in the original step. Drama ensures when you try to use the red fob and discover you need to press it X times +1 to catch up to the clone. If you Clone 3 fobs you'll have the same scenario on all 3 chanels. There's really no mystery to the Bosch immobiliser, with the pin code you put it in to learning mode, then use a master with a different pin code to initiate the learning of the remotes to the immobiliser.
I understand. we are talking from different perspectives What I did was to copy the eeprom data from a whole set working fobs to to any three fobs of the same frequency. that'll basically create an identical set of clones of the set of working fobs. Then u program it to any 360 (the same frequency of course, euro or usa), resulting the car having the same pin as the copied working set of fobs.
But this isn’t the answer. For starters you still needs the pin on the immobiliser to program the set of fobs to the car. By doing what you are describing you end up with a lot of cars with the same pin code, an possibly fobs that are able to unlock another vehicle, if by coincidence they are on the same code step. If you are offering this service to several people in the same Ferrari car club it becomes a real possibility. The only reason why someone would do this is because they don't know how to program fobs to be different, and they can't generate different pin codes. It's like selling door locks at Bunnings that all use the same keys, and hoping that someone doesn't try their key in a neighbours house
Totally agree. What I described isn't a solution. It is an argument that any three fobs of the same frequency can make a set. I am working on a method that I can randomly generate a pin code for the set of fobs.
Yes indeed that’s the way to go. Once you can generate unique PINS for each set then you have a true solution and it is no longer a clone. Hope you can crack it. The more people able to offer the proper alternative the better. This whole thing has been quite educational and I have come to understand that the general negativity towards the Bosch immobiliser system is I think unfounded. It's really quite reliable and a version was also used by Porsche for several year's. The only issue is that many people don't have their original pin code, but that's a prior owner issue and can be solved. The cost of remotes and retrieving the pin code is comparable to what a key and programming costs on many new cars - see what a VW or Merc key costs. The other thing is that when a Ferrari doesn't start, the immediate assumption is that the immobiliser is at fault. There are many, many other things more likely to fail in a Ferrari before the immobiliser
Andrew- Did not tie your two posts together. Yes, your method will work fine as long as you have a friend nearby with a set of fobs willing to let you use them. Not the case for everybody or even most owners. When Eric and I provided fob sets to owners, we actually cloned complete sets from good sets with known PINs, which was the same as a brand new set. Maximum price for all three was usually around $350, but we were not doing it to make money, just to help owners. The owners then sent us their old fobs to use in the next set. Using clones is simple, you just need to alternate the fobs every time you use one. Then the most you have to do is hit the button one or two extra times to synch up the rolling code. A bit of a pain, but works fine. So the absolute statement that clones are a waste of money is only true if you are not smarter than the clone, like I said. Clones of full sets work just like having a new set of fobs. I agree with you that the 3 fob alarm system gets a lot of bad press because owners do not understand how it works and what their options are. Mine has worked fine for 11+ years and Eric and I helped about a dozen owners get a full set for their Ferraris. We do not do that any more because there are better options out there now.
I surprised about your comments on 360 owners not knowing other friendly owners. I honestly find the opposite here. I know many 360 owners both in and outside of the club. Once you know what to do you can meet them for coffee explain that your not stealing there PIN and in fact ‘can do it without ever knowing what their PIN is’ and have it done in 10 minutes. So easy and quick to do it right. You even offer to pay for the coffees and your mate thinks your a great bloke Unfortunately there are some still cloning fobs and selling them to people who may not fully understand what they are getting. For example I have just purchased a new cloned set !! I now need to carry all three fobs everywhere I go and press each one once, including the red master, in order to keep up with the rolling codes. I also need to number my black ones, as they look the same, so I can alternate between them. If I loose my keys, as people do, I run the risk of loosing the lot including my red master with the PIN in it!!?? If that happens and I haven’t kept a copy of my PIN in a safe place at home I now face a lot more pain as I would need to rip out the whole immobiliser system from my car and send it off to recover the PIN before I can replace the fobs. If I keep the master and spare black fob at home I will need to cycle through them dozens (maybe hundreds I don’t know) of button pushes before they catch up to the one I was using... Whether that is being smarter than the fobs or ‘slaves to them’ is up for debate !! You mention you helped a dozen or so people who now have immobilisers in their cars with the same PIN. If they happen to be in the same Ferrari club then there is the real possibility that they can now open up each other’s cars if the fob code cycles happen to match at the time. As I mentioned in my last post it’s like buying a front door lock from Bunnings where they all have the same key and hoping your neighbours don’t try their keys in your lock Look I’m not bagging you here and I really do appreciate that you have helped fellow Ferrari owners with what sounds like a very cost effective option which worked to a degree. However IMHO it ultimately propagates more harm than good as these cars and fob sets are sold on. The good news is that these cloned sets can still be programmed properly if the new owners get tired of cycling through their 3 fobs whenever they use them. As you say there are better options out there nowadays such as Immofixer and it is much easier to get extra red masters, as I did, to properly and uniquely, program your own fob set to your car.
Andrew- You are way overthinking this. The fob sets Eric and I provided are scattered all over the US, which is about the same size as Australia, but with a lot more cities, Ferraris, and people. There are over 64,000 rolling code combinations and the odds of one set of fobs hitting the right one are remote at best considering max fob range is around 20'. Especially when the fobs are hundred to thousands of miles apart. So now you are smarter than the clone, too, congratulations. We all know the disadvantages of cloned fobs, but they are a workable solution, and most people only have one cloned fob. And no, you do not have to carry both with you. Start her a half dozen times on one fob and it just takes a few button pushes to synch up the next one. The trick is to alternate so they do not get unmanageably behind on rolling code. It is a cheap solution for those who do not have their PIN code or red fob and do not want to ship off their immobilizer. Having the PIN and the red fob gives you many more options. You mean you do not have your Alarm PIN memorized? Come on now, it is only 4 numbers. But then I have my credit card and bank account numbers memorized, too, so one little 4 digit number is not much compared to that. Incidentally, I do not know another owner here in Albuquerque (500,000 population) with a three fob set. There is probably one here, I just do not know them. Like I said, your technique works fine, and at least you understand how the fobs work. Most owners do not and many have really strange, incorrect ideas on how to fix fob problems. My fob document used to help educate them, but there is so much good info on the web now, I have not kept it updated.
Well between the two of us we have posted so much crap on programming fobs and the pro’s and cons of buying clones that future readers of this thread will be thoroughly informed of how it’s done and the options out there and can make up their own minds. It has been most informative. All the best
Might as well post the old document, too. Need to update this some day, but it has good info and good images. The upfront parts have been OBE'd, but the checklists work.
Actually it’s a great read and not something I had seen before. Covers just about everything one can think of on the topic. Maybe would have left out the bit on Clones One final point to note for those who might want to add a third black Fob (for reasons I’m not sure) to their set.... It cannot be done!! When you activate the learn mode of your immobiliser with the red master fob it starts a set learning algorithm that will detect the new red fob and then two new black fobs only, one after the other. Once the second black fob has been linked the immobilisers learn mode automatically stops and, in my 360, beeps 4 times to tell you it’s done.
Andrew- Affirmative, Alarm ECU will not accept a 3rd black fob . Unless, of course, you clone one of the two black fobs it did accept.
really? Why did I succeed in it? maybe my memory is wrong..... I bought a black fob on ebay and synced my existing black and red with this foreign fob
Ha ha ha you are absolutely correct. Never thought if it that way. In this case you can have as many extra fobs as you want
I think you misunderstood. Yes you can add a third fob so that you then have a total of 1 x red and 2 x black fobs but you cannot have more than 2 x black fobs for your car as the immobiliser will not recognise more than 2 x black slave fobs.
24000- You cannot add another black fob to a set of three is you only have the original red fob and PIN and one black fob. The original PIN will put the Alarm ECU in learn mode, but when you press your original red fob to program the ECU to accept it, nothing will happen. No speeding up of the LED flashing indicating the ECU has accepted the fob, because it is already in the ECU. You can use Andrew's trick with a different set of fobs and PIN programmed into the ECU, which will then allow you to use your original set next to add the third fob to the set.
Hey Ghostdiver, More than the key themselves, i'm more interested in the leather pouch that can be seen under you keys... Any idea where I could buy that? Thanks!
There are new decent quality OEMs available on eBay now...... https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/373517636988?hash=item56f762d57c:g:CrUAAOSwBTZgYQxx&frcectupt=true However if your a bit of a purist like I was you can wait for the odd original to pop up on ebay and get it recoloured to match your cars interior leather as was the original offering.
