360 instrument cluster OBD2 access?

Hello experts, does anyone know how to access the 360 instrument cluster through OBD2 for reprogramming? Which pin, which protocol, what addresses, which CAN bus messages do what etc.

I've been searching manuals and the Internet far and wide on that topic and found precisely zero information. So if anyone has some pointers that would be greatly appreciated. Apparently factory tools or Leonardo can do that, but I don't have an access to either of them. Thanks!

 

A guy with the handle @360trev is working on a project called "Swiss Army Knife" that's purported to do such things. Maybe you can get in the beta.

 

What are you trying to do exactly?

 

Thanks @EastMemphis, yes, I've been talking with Trev, he is very knowledgeable (actually the most knowledgeable in the world regarding the 360 electronics) and a great guy. I have already been on a SAK beta waiting list for a while.

As soon as Trev releases his software most if not all of our electronics projects will become obsolete, I'm really looking forward to it . But meanwhile I don't need all the features of the Swiss Army Knife. Just a few simple items, in this case :

@Melvin Diagnosi - I need dash reprogramming between F1 and manual. It seems the dash has not made it yet into the DYI hacking domain, so any pointer will help. Thanks

 

I'm still not sure what you are trying to do.

For info, there is a number of data busses on the F360. The OBD2 port communicates with various systems directly, including the Instrument panel.

There is also a CAN Bus system for communication between the instrument panel, computers, etc.

1) CAN Bus lines from the Instrument Panel to: ABS ECU, F1 TCU and the RH Engine ECU.
2) CAN Bus line between the Engine ECUs.

The CAN Bus system uses pairs of green and white wires.

Are you wanting to know which busses are used for ECU programming? @360trev should be able to tell you this.

I see you are aware of the pdf wiring diagrams for the Spider. Were you also aware of the "traditional" wiring diagrams that I have been working on?

e.g. Instrument diagram for F360 Spider (version 19):

https://www.dropbox.com/t/EdocCz13wPs0MaiM

This diagram shows some of the data lines.

The link above expires in 6 days (I'm am constantly updating/correcting the diagrams, so I won't provide a permanent link)

 

@Qavion, yes, I'm aware of the pdf diagrams (I've posted the best one I have on the Technical Chat), but I have not been aware of your instrument diagram - it is just AWESOME, thank you!

If @360trev could chime in with any message formats/protocols that would be fantastic, but meanwhile let's complete the wiring. I see clearly the Instrument Panel K-Line, L-Line and which pins on the OBD2 they go to. I see CAN+/CAN- from the 12 pin connector.

But for the completeness, your Instrument Panel 8 pin connector pins 7&8 (pre-setting for CAN+/CAN-) are not connected - are those not useful or the diagram has not been completed for them yet?

Also, while at it, I've tried to find a complete OBD2 pin out and surprisingly I could not find any :-(

So below is my first attempt. "Empty" means not connected, "Ferrari" means model specific functions.

Do you know where OBD2 pins 6/7 and 14/15 connect to on your diagram (somehow I can't find it)? Also what are and where do the pins 8/11/12 go? Thanks!

 

OBD2 Pins for 2002 360 Modena USA version. Ferrari = Model Specific.


1. Ferrari L-line Pin 7 of Instrument Panel 12 pin connector

2. Empty

3. Ferrari K-line Pin 6 of Instrument Panel K-line, 12 pin connector

4. Chassis ground

5. Signal ground

6. ISO15765-4 CAN-Bus High

7. ISO9141-2 K-line or??? ISO14230-4 KWP2000 F-Line

8. Ferrari ???

9. Empty

10. Empty

11. Ferrari ???

12. Ferrari ???

13. Empty

14. ISO15765-4 CAN-Bus Low

15. ISO9141-2 L-Line or??? ISO14230-4 KWP2000 L-line

16. Constant +12V

 

Here's a list I compiled for the 2003 F360 Spider OBD2 port:

1. Ferrari L-line Pin 7 of Instrument Panel 12 pin connector and via splices to Window ECU and ABS/ASR ECU
2. Empty
3. Ferrari K-line Pin 6 of Instrument Panel K-line, 12 pin connector and via splices to Window ECU and ABS/ASR ECU
4. Empty
5. Ground
6. Immobiliser ECU
7. L & R Motronic ECU and F1 TCU
8. Roof ECU and Suspension ECU
9. Empty
10. Empty
11. Airbag ECU
12. HVAC ECU
13. Empty
14. HVAC ECU
15. F1 TCU
16. Live (fused) battery power.

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I don't know what the protocols are or if they are hi/lo. Also, the diagrams don't say if they are USA or Euro.

 

Super, thank you!

Even though as per the attached Ferrari recall I think Pin 4 should be grounded not Empty. And a purist would say Ferrari should in the recall run a wire to chassis ground for Pin 4 instead of simply connecting it to signal ground on Pin 5 but probably it does not matter in practical terms and I'm guessing Ferrari wanted to make it cheaper and simpler rather than correct.

 

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Ah, thanks, I didn't realise that USA modification applied to the F360 also.

Basically there is a jumper wire between pins 4 & 5 (so that they have a common earth).

 

I'm very interested in this, please let me know what you come up with.
I guess you know you can do it with an SD-2.

 

Sorry, I missed this question. The 360 Coupe & Spider wiring hookup diagrams don't show any wires on pins 7 & 8. The F430 uses these, however.

Do you know if the SD-2 is plugged into the OBD2 port for all systems. On older cars (e.g. F355), the SD tool was plugged into the OBD2 port and into the individual computers (HVAC, Suspension ECU, etc)

 

As far as I know, yes. I have a friend that has access to an SD-2 but it lives in NJ and doesn't make to his shop in Boca very often. I'll call him tomorrow and ask him how he did it.

 

@Qavion @duskybird thank you. Getting some info from that friend with SD2 will be great. Below is a random photo of SD2 (Maserati, Ferrari similar), which shows many other connectors. And a page from the SD3 manual shows a bunch of non OBD2 connector with a comment "for SD2 type diagnostics. Plus there is another comment about the cars before "Quattroporte and 612". So knowing nothing about the SD tools my guess would be that the newer (starting Quattroporte and 612) can fully be programmed through OBD2, but our cars need a few other connectors for a job :-(. At least by the factory design, maybe @360trev or someone else found a direct way through OBD2 only.

For example CAN pins 4&5 from the 12 pin connector don't seem to be present on OBD2. Plus there is pin 12 of the 12 pin connector labeled as "for Digitek" and Digitek is the manufacturer of SD2 for Ferrari. SD2 is probably using that pin.



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@duskybird - has your friend replied regarding SD2 programming? The first question for him would be if it is all done through OBD2 (presumably pins 1&3) or with an additional connector, and if so, where is that connector being plugged in.

From the diagram it would be the 12 pin connector 6E on the back of the instrument cluster - meaning removal of the cluster to access it.

Looking more at the diagrams, CAN pins 4&5 go to ABS/F1/Engine, so likely only to collect the display info, not used to program. So potentially only the Digitek pin 12 would be used for programming if anything except OBD2 is required. Thanks.

 

Looks like SD2 is only using OBD2 for the instrument cluster

 

Do you mean that the only thing that can be programmed via the OBD2 port is the instrument cluster? i.e. everything else must be reprogrammed via other methods (e.g. chip replacement/reflashing).

You still haven’t told us what you want to do, other than reprogram the instrument cluster. Anyway, it sounds like you need an SD tool and the appropriate software.

 

That is an interesting interpretation . If not clear from the context, here is a more grammatically correct statement:

"Looks like SD2 is using only OBD2 for the instrument cluster."

Regarding what I want to do, as I stated above on Wednesday "I need dash reprogramming between F1 and manual." Thanks!

 

It still sounds (to me) like you're saying that you can't use the SD2 tool to do anything else other than programming a specific computer. That would make the OBD2 port and the SD2 tool next to useless. Or are you saying the SD2 tool only uses OBD2 protocol for one specific function and other protocols for other functions?

Sorry, I missed your F1 to manual statement.

 

OBD2 has been forced into existence by government regulations to provide a uniform way to do a number of things (primarily emissions related) so any tool (SD2 included) can be used to read/clear data from various modules, and majority of all functions of SD2 are done through OBD2.

Volumes can be written on the definition, evolution and adoption of OBD2 but to summarize it in one paragraph, it has become mandatory in USA (and most of the world) starting with cars model year 1996. Before that, many professional dealer diagnostics tools used proprietary connectors to various modules. From 1996 some of those functions were forced to be made through OBD2, but few were still left with additional proprietary connectors. Over the years those proprietary connectors started to disappear and pretty much all of them are gone now. Please look at several connectors in the SD2 photo I posted above, those are for functions not done through OBD2.

So the cars designed in the 1990s (360 included) are transitional cars - some of them still used proprietary connectors in addition to OBD2, and continued to use them until early 2000s, some gradually moved all the functions to OBD2. Please note that initially K-Line and L-Line were mandatory (pins 7&15), CAN Bus became mandatory (pins 6&14) only in 2008 etc.

As a result, a first step when reprogramming the instrument cluster in 360 from F1 to Manual is to determine how to access it - is it through OBD2 only, or some other older connector, or both. Now we know that the answer is "OBD2 only".

I hope that this (rather lengthy) description clarifies the topic.

 

George- Actually OBDII became mandatory on 1 January 1996 and was not directly related to model year. Otherwise manufacturers would have called their cars MY 95 for quite a while, especially Ferrari. An example of this is no 1996 MY 456 GTs because 5.2 was not ready for the 456 by January 1996. 5.2 was definitely ready for the F355 on time, the volume seller at the time.

But you need an SD2 or equivalent to change the instrument panel from F1 to manual. Or send the panel to someone who specializes in converting Ferraris from F1 to manual, to Rod at FAI, or to Trev.

 

I haven't read this whole thread yet but I just wanted to mention I can modify the engine firmware in such as way that you don't need to touch the instrument cluster...

 

Ian,

Mitchell suggested that I check the integrity of the CAN buses on my 360 Modena, and gave me addresses 11, 14, and 18.

1. Is the connector for the buss(s) behind the passenger seat?

2. Should I probe pins on the connector to chassis ground and look for a particular (terminal) resistance value?

3. Can you tell me where to find a connector pinout that indicates the addresses 11, 14, and 18 ?

Thanks.

 

CANBus wiring is usually checked from ECU to ECU although you can check the wiring at any inline connector which has bus wiring if continuity checks fail between computers.

Except for the inter-Motronic ECU CAN Bus, the two colour wire network is all spliced together (green to green, white to white) with an “impedance matching” 120 ohm resistor somewhere in the network between the green and white wires. However, because of the parallel resistances in each ECU, measuring across the green and white wires produces a resistance of 60 ohms (half 120).

Whether you have to check all CAN Bus lines for your fuel trim issue, I don’t know. For example, would you expect “vehicle speed” from the Brake ECU to affect left bank fuel trim only? Even if it did, there is no CAN Bus wiring directly between the ABS ECU and the LH Motronic ECU. That data is fed to the RH ECU and the RH ECU may possibly send vehicle speed data to the LH ECU on the inter-ECU CANBus. The Left Motronic ECU remains relatively isolated on the 360: Apart from the inter-Motronic ECU databus (pins 45 and 61), the CAN Bus wiring (on pins 12 & 29) of the Left Motronic ECU remains unused.
Similarly, I don't know if the instrument panel is sending any fuel trim-relevant data to the Motronic ECUs. The formula for injector open times doesn't seem to need stuff like this.

I'm not sure what Mitch means by address 11, 14, and 18. They don't correspond to ECU CAN Bus pin numbers.

If you did want to check the bus between the two Motronic ECUs as a start, you would check between pins 45 & 61 on both ECUs. i.e. pin 45 to pin 45, pin 61 to pin 61. Then check between pins 45 and 61 for the 60 ohm impedance.

Having said all this, the bus transmission/reception system has a self-monitoring system and usually knows if the data is corrupt or out of range and will notify the ECU and this should generate an OBD2 code.

Pins 45 and 61 are on the outboard ECU plugs (on your Modena)

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Appreciate the input. I’ll study it and get back to you with what I find from the resistance check.

BTW: The post from Mitchell is one up from the last post in our ongoing three-way conversation.