Daytona Fastener Finish? | FerrariChat

Daytona Fastener Finish?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by murphyrg1, Oct 11, 2021.

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  1. murphyrg1

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    #1 murphyrg1, Oct 11, 2021
    In disassembling our early '69 Daytona we are finding almost no trace of any protective finish on all of the fasteners. The only conclusion we can come to is that everything was just black oxide coated with an oil dip as it is the only treatment that we know of that just goes away with time and there is very little corrosion on the rest of the car. Most of the other European cars of this vintage that we are familiar with used yellow cad which would still be present on this car, if that is what they used. Did they really come with just black oxide on everything?

    So even if they used black oxide in the day, we would not be crazy about using it again because it protects so poorly. Maybe we would consider a black chromate over zinc to roughly approximate it, but only if we were likely to be dinged for using either silver or yellow chromate (yellow cad is hard to do around here).

    Any advice from the guys who sweat this kind of stuff? Or from concours judges that we may run across in the future?

    Thanks,
    Rory
     
  2. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
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    #2 Edward 96GTS, Oct 11, 2021
    can you be more specific re which fasteners?
     
  3. garybobileff

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    #3 garybobileff, Oct 11, 2021
    Bolts are Black Ox, nuts are cad gold, washers and spacers are cad silver on the suspension. Calipers are cad gold, caliper hardware is black ox, bleeders and cross over tubes are cad clear/ silver. Motor compartment hardware varies in color, based upon location and the hardware's purpose. All transaxle hardware is black ox, output flanges are dark green phosphate, same green phosphate on the c/v joint housings with a silk screen stamping stating " 330 GT".
    Gary Bobileff
     
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  4. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting
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    #4 murphyrg1, Oct 11, 2021
    Everything holding the suspension together as well as most everything bolted to the chassis.
     
  5. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 dm_n_stuff, Oct 11, 2021
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  6. murphyrg1

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    #6 murphyrg1, Oct 11, 2021
    Thanks for the detailed response,Gary. That's a good start for us.
     
  7. murphyrg1

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    #7 murphyrg1, Oct 11, 2021
    Funny. Someone else suggested them just today. When I Googled them and saw that they sold storage containers and industrial air ducts, I thought I had the wrong place. Who knew they were the secret source for Ferrari fasteners.
     
  8. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 dm_n_stuff, Oct 12, 2021
    Yup,

    But they were great helping me with what I needed for my Dino, not cheap, but correct enough to pass muster with FCA concours judges.

    D
     
  9. fasthound

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    #9 fasthound, Oct 12, 2021
    That’s just BRILLIANT, THANKS FOR THAT SOURCE!
     
  10. TTR

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    #10 TTR, Oct 12, 2021
    Oh man, and with all due respect, but had I known it's all that simple, I wouldn’t had spent (wasted ?) so much time and effort on research and documentation of all the contradictory evidence I’ve discovered over the years.
    OTOH, now I can just get rid of all that nonsense and perhaps best if I never judge another Daytona (or any other car) again using such evidence.
     
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  11. TTR

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    #11 TTR, Oct 12, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    Not with those who know, can see the difference and are willing to take judging seriously, but based on past experiences, most probably can’t/don’t.
     
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  12. garybobileff

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    #12 garybobileff, Oct 12, 2021
    The question that I answered was specific to a post asking about a very early 1969 Daytona. Not a 1974 Daytona, or any other year Daytona. You may have discovered differences in your multi year research of Daytona's, but that fails to properly address and answer the original poster's question.
    Gary Bobileff
     
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  13. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
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    #13 Edward 96GTS, Oct 12, 2021
    timo,
    can you post your typical findings for a 69 daytona?
     
  14. TTR

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    #14 TTR, Oct 12, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    Thanks for clarifying Gary.
    I’m always worried that future readers may not be able to differentiate production timeline detail changes/variations when they read something or see pictures online, unless they’re made aware of such things (possibly) existing.
    OTOH, I’m glad to have learned something today.
     
  15. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 dm_n_stuff, Oct 12, 2021
    Based on the times I showed my car, none did. But they also weren't looking for tie breakers. and spent more time on things like tools and books than they did on interior finish screws. I'm not talking Pebble Beach here.

    I did have a fairly heated argument about the side markers with one judge at the New Hope show years back. Eventually showed him a book with photos of a Dino with U.S. side markers and he relented.

    D
     
  16. Edward 96GTS

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    #16 Edward 96GTS, Oct 12, 2021
    at Pebble, photos are requested and judges have months to evaluate the car. at even the fca nationals, the judges spend maybe 20 minutes and a lot less than that if youre the last car right before lunch break.
     
  17. TTR

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    #17 TTR, Oct 12, 2021
    Sorry, but like most details on other model years I have more discoveries of, I prefer not to share much of them online/publicly, so that I can’t be “accused” of providing inaccurate or misleading information. ;)
     
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  18. Edward 96GTS

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    #18 Edward 96GTS, Oct 12, 2021
    post what you found, this is just a chat forum to share thoughts and no one will be accused of malice, its just everyones findings will help clarify previous irregularities. your input could be very valuable.
     
  19. murphyrg1

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    #19 murphyrg1, Oct 13, 2021
    I agree completely. While I always value the input of someone with more knowledge or experience than I have on a given car, it’s just another data point to me, even if I know that that particular person is truly an expert in this area and most likely correct. I appreciate them making the effort to share their knowledge with me, but I don’t necessarily feel obligated to always agree with their view. Nor would I be upset if anyone decided to ignore my incredibly well-informed opinions.

    Whenever I hear someone declare that no car built after this date or that serial number had some specific part or feature, I think “There is someone who probably never worked in a manufacturing environment”. Not only is the “First in – Last out” inventory flow still more common than many realize, but as someone who spent too much time doing engineering configuration control for a multi-national Tier 1 automotive supplier, ”Things happen”. You can make an engineering change serious enough to deserve serial number tracking, but if you are about to take Ford’s line down because your supplier couldn’t provide the new widget fast enough, an engineering deviation to temporarily use the old widget again will magically appear. Do we really think that Ferrari and their suppliers were paragons of inventory control in the ‘60’s? You would almost think that the right and left sides of our ‘69 were built in different factories.

    I think that we will always have incomplete information when it comes to exactly how these cars rolled out of the factory 50+ years ago. The best we can do is to share what we have seen with the near certainty that we haven’t seen it all.

    And I’d sure like to know what was typical in a ’69, too.
     
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  20. TTR

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    #20 TTR, Oct 13, 2021
    Years ago, when initially interested in taking over the Daytona Registry and all it's associated segments, I felt compelled to collect, combine and share everything I had and eventually would learn about these cars, but that ship sailed long ago...

    Rory, even though I've never been involved with automotive manufacturing, my personal research and subsequent analysis/opinions I've developed over the decades have convinced that there are very few, if any, absolutes in it, especially with small outlier manufacturers like Ferrari, etc.

    This is also one of the reason why much of my online "sharing" is or opinions are only suggestive or somewhat vague, especially since I wasn't there when each of these cars were made and whatever information I may choose to volunteer publicly is usually just based on hands-on experiences and personal observations.

    Good luck with your project.
    Years ago, I periodically received calls from S.D. when he was trying (struggling ?) to put that car together.
    Eventually, I even suggested that he should bring the car and everything he had for it down to my shop for a couple(?) of weeks and I would help inventory it all, get some of "hard" stuff done and advise/assist him how to move forward with the project in logical order, etc, but ...
     
  21. murphyrg1

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    #21 murphyrg1, Oct 13, 2021
    Timo,
    I didn't realize that you were familiar with our car. It's too bad that you didn't have greater involvement at the time - I'm sure that would have resulted in many fewer "mysteries" for us today.
    I understand and appreciate your position and I'm glad to hear that your general sense is that we are dealing with a product that was inherently subject to variations throughout its production run.
    Regards,
    Rory
     
  22. TTR

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    #22 TTR, Oct 13, 2021
    Rory,
    my involvement with the car was limited to few phone conversations and couple of emails, which as you probably are aware is not always ideal for any meaningful consultation, hence my previously mentioned suggestion of hands-on inventory and assembly assistance.
    I even suggested that if he didn't feel confident about my abilities or suggested approach, he should enlist consultation services from someone else who's done a comprehensive, professional restoration on one or more before.
     
  23. murphyrg1

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    #23 murphyrg1, Oct 13, 2021
    Timo,
    Due to his unfortunate passing, we were left with very limited records. Since we are completely disassembling the body and chassis in order to return it to its original blue color, the history of those components is less critical. The engine and transaxle, however, have been redone many years back and have never been run. The appraiser who reviewed the car before we bought it suggested that Patrick Otis either did the motor, or had some involvement, although we have never seen any proof of that. So we need to evaluate both of those items carefully before deciding how to proceed.

    One area that we know we need to better understand is the recreation of the original plexi-nose. It seems likely that it was updated to the later pop-up headlights in '81 when it was brought into this country. We need to know what the original headlight support structure consisted of and what parts (or fabrication) are required. Ideally, we can get a good look at an unmolested plexi-nose car and/or get a detailed set of photos of that area. It's a challenge, but we're looking forward to getting back to its original form.

    Thanks for your input.
    Rory
     
  24. TTR

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    #24 TTR, Oct 13, 2021
    Rory, I think you should ask Ottis about the engine and transaxle.
    IIRC, this came up with my (phone) conversations with S.D.
     
  25. daytonaman

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    #25 daytonaman, Oct 14, 2021
    nuts from 12971 undisturbed for 52 years.
    clearly silver cad
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