355 - Explanation of secondary air and vacuum system | FerrariChat

355 Explanation of secondary air and vacuum system

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, Nov 3, 2021.

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  1. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I am hoping someone can explain this diagram.
    I think most of us understand the secondary air injection system but how does this system
    Create vacume.
    From what I can tell the secondary system would work first when you first start the car but after
    The pump shuts off is that when it starts to create vacuum in the tank?
     
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  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #2 Qavion, Nov 3, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
    The engine itself creates vacuum and stores it in the reservoir/tank (6). The Secondary Air Valve (13) is actuated (only) by the stored vacuum. The vacuum from the tank is routed to the valve via the respective engine ECU-controlled solenoid valve (8).

    The pump (40) only creates a positive pressure, not a vacuum. It is not hooked up at all to the vacuum system. The positive pressure is directed to the exhaust manifolds via the Secondary Air Valve and some mechanical non-return valves (22).

    The pump sucks up ambient air in the engine bay (and filters it) before sending it to the Secondary Air Valve.
     
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  3. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #3 taz355, Nov 4, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
    I got that part but what about line 35 as it is hooked to pump pressure and returns to vacuum tank
    When solenoid 8 lhs opens you have vacuum and pump pressure dead heading.

    that’s why I was asking.
    Does the system activate for pump pressure originally and then once pump shuts down vacuum
    8 lhs closes and 8 Rhs opens and takes over with vacuum?
    I hate fluid dynamics and am a bit lost.

    thanks Ian but I need more ha ha
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    That's a bad diagram with, basically, misleading descriptions. Pipe 35 goes to the exhaust bypass valve (from the upper port of the solenoid valve for the bypass valve).

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    I think the secondary air valve is simply an on/off valve with no regulation of secondary air pressure. This setup may be capable of pressure regulation, but I think it's simply an on/off action carried out by the solenoid valve (under the command of the Motronic ECU). There are no pressure sensors to sense the pressure in the lines, so no feedback for pressure control.
     
  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    ThanksIan
    I remember that now as it goes to the s teelline and comes out on the steel line stub show in diagram
    Thanks
     
  6. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    That was what was confusing me
    Thanks a lot
     
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  7. Qavion

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    Actually, that diagram I posted is not really a proper representation either (at least not of my '98). On my car, part of the exhaust bypass valve tubing is metal and it is welded to the side of the secondary air tubing (part 36). However, the tubes simply run in parallel and are not connected (air-wise).
     
  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Yes that’s what I was saying
    35 plugs into a steel small line that runs along the secondary airline and up to the nipple shown
     
  9. taz355

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    Now what about the check valve
    What is the orientation as I see the black side should . Face back of car?
    That would be part number 20


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  10. Qavion

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    Mine are black side closest to the throttle bodies. White side goes to the reservoir.
     
  11. taz355

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    Not sure if check valves are working properly
    When I blow in the line from reservoir to valves I can blow air but when I suck it’s blocked.
    I thought if the tank was providing vacuum then you should be able to suck through check valves and not blow.
    What the heck, I am now sure check valves are likely good but seem backwards
    Mine are same as others I have seen. Black side towards back window white side to bumper
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Yes, same as mine.

    The tank is not the (original) source of vacuum, the throttle bodies* are. Suck on the black side. Blow on the white.

    *venturi principle
     
  13. taz355

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    Still lost
    I thought the throttle bodies were connected to other side of vacuum tank than the check valves and provide vacuum to the solenoids and when they actuate they provide vacuum to the check valves and then the FPR. They also provide to secondary air valve, and the bypass./
    That’s what it looked like as you follow the lines from the tank through the check valves I thought
     
  14. taz355

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    #14 taz355, Nov 6, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
    So the bottom of the throttle bodies suck on the check valves and the FPR at the same time??
    And provide vacuum to tank through the above line 37 from my first diagram?
    If that’s the case then it makes more sense

    Do you have a diagram of the source vacuum line from one of the rear throttle bodies That someone else mentioned?
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

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    It might be better to say "the throttle bodies and solenoids are both connected to the vacuum tank" (rather than there being different "sides" of the vacuum tank). As Ian indicated, you should be able to blow in the direction from the vacuum tank to the throttles bodies (as that's the direction that the air moves when the throttle bodies "suck" on the vacuum tank).
     
  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    OK, Grant.

    1. On your car, the engine provides the source of vacuum while it is running. That is because the piston moves down while the intake valve is open and it sucks air into the cylinder thereby providing vacuum.
    2. That vacuum is maximum at idling because the throttle plate is closed. Vacuum is at its minimum when the throttle is wide open making it harder to create a vacuum against that much air.
    3. The vacuum at the throttle plate drives the FPR with or without the check valve, although a failing check valve would make it harder for the regulator to run well at wide open throttle
    4. There are other things in the car that needs vacuum to operate correctly, the bypass exhaust valve is one such animal. For that reason, there is a vacuum reservoir (the tomato can) and associated lines to the right of the engine compartment providing this function.
    5. The two check valves (one on each bank) are there to help the reservoir system to build and maintain vacuum to drive the bypass valve.

    IF that check valve has failed, it would be difficult to maintain a high level of vacuum in the reservoir at high throttle.

    SO, when you smash the throttle, your engine creates the least amount of vacuum. Added to that the failing check valve and the reservoir has the least amount of vacuum available to it. The computer instructs the bypass valve to open (because you smashed the throttle) and it draws more vacuum from the whole thing which takes vacuum away from the fuel pressure regulator. That messes up the fuel delivery of that bank at wide open throttle.

    Does that sound like what happens when you imitate Mario Andretti?
     
  17. taz355

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    #17 taz355, Nov 7, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
    ha ha ha
    Maybe
    The thing is I think I had the check valve operation backwards but I do know that when I checked it
    It was not consistent in that a few times as you blew threw it you could both blow and suck but eventually it would start working one way again. Because of this I am unsure if it was not working or not.
    But I smoke tested the intake by having my wife blow smoke into the maf and I did have a leak on bank one.
    Someone told me to smoke test it, and Linda helped me out. Thanks Mitchell

    Guess what I found a leak in the connector right at the elbow the enters the plenum
    The clamp was very tight but the screw was cross threaded or something, basically buggered so I had a spare and tightened it up.
    Can not test drive it yet but will keep the brotherhood informed hopefully tomorrow.

    thanks for the explanation to all on the vacuum system.
    I do want to ask the question though, does the vacuum as I described above get sucked from the bottom of the throttle bodies where the vacuum line
    Attaches to the brass nipples.
    I just assumed it was a straight through pipe cast into the bottom but is there a passage way from each one into the pipe that you can not see.
    If this is the case then would my guess that vacuum is created on the tank and the FPR at the same time as I described above.


    I also have spare check valves so if the test failed I will install 1and check again. Hopefully streets are finally dry in the am.
    thanks to all
     
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  18. Qavion

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    Correct. Every throttle body feeds that vacuum line at the base of the throttle body via hidden holes. The vacuum lines suck on the FPRs and vacuum tank.

    Glad you found the problem.
     
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  19. m.stojanovic

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    There should be no check valve between the TB-s (intake manifold) and the FPR. The FPR needs to see the changing vacuum in the intake manifold so that it can adjust the fuel pressure accordingly: higher vacuum - lower pressure; lower vacuum - higher pressure. In this way, the FPR keeps the fuel pressure constant in relation to the manifold pressure which ensures a constant flow through the injectors. Without this compensation, the injector flow would, at a given fuel pressure, be higher at higher intake vacuum and lower at lower vacuum.
     
  20. johnk...

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    I think what Mitch meant was that the FPS will work with or without a check valve in the vacuum line between the throttle body and the vacuum canister.
     
  21. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Yes that makes sense thanks guys
     
  22. taz355

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    #22 taz355, Nov 7, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
    Update
    Still not working although it worked perfect For about 2 minutes after a big backfire when I had floored it in 4th gear at only 30mph.
    I thought because I found some issue they were likely the problem but not so lucky.

    As they say in game of thrones for those of us that watched it “winter is coming’ so I put the car away and up on the lift. The thermostat gasket is leaking slightly and it started about a month ago so I will be taking the top off the engine and will start working through the problem more thedocially this winter and keep you posted.
    I thought it would be an easier. And more obvious fix.
     
  23. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    This is a clue, if only I know what it means ... yet.
     
  24. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I know what it means.

    Excess gasoline was inside a cylinder when the "wasted spark" was introduced into the cylinder. You have over injection of fuel possibly from a leaky injector, or a bad fuel regulator.
     
  25. Qavion

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