Ferrari 812competizione + 812competizioneA Picture and News Thread

the cave look is all the rage with race cars...so many have zero rear view...

as for those L-shaped things, one thing they are not are vortex generators, they likely do absolutely nothing at all, they are all about design, zero function, regardless of how Ferrari wants you to believe otherwise

doubt me? where has Ferrari published actual wind tunnel tests? is there any other organization that ever made L-bracket "vortex generators" for any application (air,land,underwater)??

Vortex generators need to be in the path of direct airflow to function (like that "fin" on top of the SF90, that's where vortex generators would be placed, not in the area where the air flow is detaching and becoming chaotic...)

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Starting around 2m30s
How do Vortex Generators Work?


shows that the "L-brackets" on the back deck of the 812VS are merely for design, they are not doing anything functional

 

Highly doubt glass or lexan has enough tensile strength to cope with the added stress. A thick enough glass would be too heavy.

 

Have you every studied CFD modelling or carried out any such modelling?

 

Relevance? Sounds like you would rather try to discredit me rather than research the issue for yourself.

As the airflow detaches from the roof the car, without any actual vortex generator the flow becomes chaotic over the "back hatch", the tiny carbon blades are doing nothing of merit at all to move the airflow in any manner whatsoever.

Does this help:

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In the image below, the wing helps focus the air, you can plainly see the difference.
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If the term 'vortex generator' has any meaning at all, it definitely is not happening with those carbon blades, they are not vortex generators nor are they causing any sufficient/meaningful deflection of air.

If a photo/video becomes available showing the car after it has been driven at highway speeds in the rain, the 'dirty lines' will indicate where surface flow was happening. It would be quite interesting to see if the dirt is deflected towards the sides of the car or back, against blades and then over and back further...or something else, best if it is a dark colored car...

Nonetheless, a vortex generator cannot be accomplished outside of the main airflow.
https://ijisrt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/1Energization-of-Boundary-Layer-Over-Wing-Surface.pdf
As air normally flows over the wing of an aircraft, the air sticks to the surface of the wing. This adherence to the wing’s surface produces lift. If the air flow loses its adherence and separates from the wing, aircraft performance can suffer in the form of increased drag, loss of lift and higher fuel consumption. Vortex generators are used to control this flow detachment by producing vortices. The vortex generators sweep away uncontrolled airflow separation over the airplane’s wing with the benefit of reduced drag and increased lift, i.e., less engine power needed to produce the same lift.

The point of separation is where a vortex generator would be placed, not well downstream, so, immediately obvious whatever those carbon blades are, they are not vortex generators in any sense.

And, Ferrari would never want to use actual vortex generators without using a large wing to settle the car otherwise the resulting low pressure would lift the rear.

 

Cars that have actual vortex generators:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/do-vortex-generators-actually-help-road-cars/

The carbon blades on the 812c are for decoration, because, without them, that would be a huge blank, boring cover to look at...

 

You think? I don't think the pressure there is so high.

 

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HD: 1. https://media.autoexpress.co.uk/image/private/s--21swM_Tv--/v1636476841/evo/2021/11/812_Competizione_statics-details_9.jpg
2. https://www.auto-salon-singen.de/generate/vehicle/5e150c5554322/ferrari_f12_e08265-1600x1200_crop.jpg
3. https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2021/11/812_Competizione_statics-details_32_0.jpg
4. https://f7432d8eadcf865aa9d9-9c672a3a4ecaaacdf2fee3b3e6fd2716.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/C2299/U8766/IMG_44080-large.jpg

 

It’s incredible to see how the F12tdf has aged that well!

 

Only my taste of course but I like the Competizione design.
More balanced to my eyes ( especially the rear).

 

The blades could have something to do with laminar flow rather than vortex generation.

Anyway, I still think that removing the rear window in a front engined car is not a great idea.

 

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HD: 1. https://media.evo.co.uk/image/private/s--Loc1EeF7--/f_auto,t_content-image-full-desktop@2/v1636476842/evo/2021/11/812_Competizione_statics-details_20.jpg
2. https://www.motorlegend.com/modules/breve/photos/src/ferrari-f12tdf-22387-2.jpg
3. https://media.autoexpress.co.uk/image/private/s--oMlP5wU_--/v1636476841/evo/2021/11/812_Competizione_statics-details_22.jpg
4. https://www.autoblog.gr/wp-content/gallery/2018/2016-ferrari-f12tdf-mecum-auction/2016_Ferrari_F12TdF_Mecum_Auction_0005.jpg

 

With design, it's often the case that less is more.

 

I'm with you on all this vortex generators subject. Even more after learning a bit more with your links and vids. The carbon L-shaped blades are clearly not vortex generators even if (big if) they marginally somehow accomplish the function of drawing some flow to the spoiler so it can work as expected from typical spoilers. But yes I've realized since long that Ferrari markets marginal aero improvements as big deals when most of the time they do nothing or very, very little. Nice cool design ideas that sound way cooler if marketed as clever aero solutions, they do that a lot. But effective? Simply no, or marginally, most of the times.

 

Thanks a lot, very practical

 

Let me point the relevance to you. If you had studied CFD or done any CFD modelling then you would have focused on function over semantics. You would have been much better served by reading Ferrari's press release rather than furiously typing vortex generators in Google search. Let me paste the press release below:

"The aerodynamic development of the diffuser forms allowed the areas of the car dedicated to downforce generation to be extended transversely. The spoiler is now not only higher than on the 812 Superfast, but extends across almost the entire width of the car, working in perfect aerodynamic synergy with the diffuser to guarantee maximum downforce possible over the rear axle. The redesign of the rear wings also benefits aerodynamic performance: the volume has been scooped out rear of the crest to create an aerodynamic channel in the flank to the outside edge of the spoiler which is thus struck by a highly energised flow.

But what really captures the attention is the rear screen which, for the first time on a production car, is completely closed and thus allowed the engineers to explore some unprecedented aerodynamic solutions. It has been equipped with three pairs of profiled elements which protrude from its surface and act as vortex generators. From the LaFerrari onwards, vortex generators of this type have been used on production cars to maximise downforce generated by the flat underbody. However, this solution was applied to the rear screen on the 812 Competizione to distort the flow and thus redistribute the rear axle’s pressure field.

These vortex generators further enhance the work of the rear spoiler-diffuser system, creating areas of strong pressure gradients in the flow immediately above the rear screen and generating vortexes on the transverse plane. Thanks to this solution, part of the flow is deflected towards the sides of the spoiler which boosts downforce generation, benefiting the efficiency of the diffuser. The patented vortex generators alone guarantee 10 percent of the total increase in rear downforce compared to the 812 Superfast."

These slats on the back window are being deployed to manipulate flows in ways which are different from the vortex generator videos you are posting. There are many things that can be done within the different parts of the flow (and speeds of the flow) to shape and mould them. Anyone who has ever dealt with Navier stokes equations would never draw simplistic conclusions from looking at one specific flow case. Also in the release itself Ferrari notes that these slats increase downforce by 10% not crazy amounts like 20-30% and that is in conjunction with the wing and the diffuser.

The point that I will agree with you is to question the overall need to introduce them on a road car but then each Ferrari has to come with its own theatre and special calling card and there is always a balance between form and function. But to simply google the word Vortex Generators and then call BS on Ferrari Engineering is a bit of a stretch.

 

Not sure anyone called the F12TDF less when it was released. There were many here who found it too edgy compared to the F12s smooth lines. I love the F12 TDF (599 GTO even more so) and also quite like 812 Competitzione for its uniqueness and brutality of design.
I for one am firmly in the Marcello Gandini camp of striving for new and unique forms rather than the Porsche Aston nexus of design by photocopy.

 

Not to beat on a dead horse but since you understand it all so well and the vortex generators are complete bunk, I wonder what exactly was Ferrari granted a patent for?

 

Reminds me of how/when the Performante set the Nurburgring track record with its ALA aero wing and spoiler. Funny how the next model STO scrapped that design.


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When writing on a public forum such as this there is consideration for the audience at large, and I presume not all are scientifically minded or need such input.

Just the same I present:

Effect of Vortex generators on Aerodynamics of a Car: CFD Analysis
http://ijiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/21.pdf

EXPERIMENTAL AND CFD ANALYSIS ON CAR WITH SEVERAL TYPES OF VORTEX GENERATORS
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Wriddha-Sen/publication/339973512_EXPERIMENTAL_AND_CFD_ANALYSIS_ON_CAR_WITH_SEVERAL_TYPES_OF_VORTEX_GENERATORS/links/5e708bad92851c1a689a7c58/EXPERIMENTAL-AND-CFD-ANALYSIS-ON-CAR-WITH-SEVERAL-TYPES-OF-VORTEX-GENERATORS.pdf

Notice how the only shapes used are linear, no bends and at the point or slightly upstream from the point of airflow separation.

And, any additional downforce is mostly if not entirely due to the raised lip spoiler, not any decorations on the rear cover.

The "bracketed channel guides" at the underside of their cars are directly in the airflow, mostly flexible rubber, guide a small amount of air mostly for cooling purposes and maybe some aerodynamic benefit, again, they are placed directly in the airflow, but, they do interfere with one another as well. Funny, Ferrari calls them "barge boards" (turning vanes) for F1, but "vortex generators" for production cars:
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/barge_boards.html
https://www.ferrari.com/en-BY/magazine/articles/virtuous-vortex-ferrari-s-aero-secrets

 

Summary: the patent indicates the rear hatch to be mechanized and lift to various positions, with the deflector vanes (aerodynamic elements) then becoming part of the airflow, that did not become part of production, not even a little bit.

Conclusion: gimmick, decoration, nothing more

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OK, this is really good, the Ferrari Patent, I found, its "invention" is mostly UNLIKE what you find on the 812C.

There are actually 2 patents (essentially identical), each including a motor that moves hatch upwards to align airflow (see Paragraphs [0035-0044], image below)

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And, as referred to in the patent (EP 3 792 160 A1, see figure 6), the "moustaches" (comma vanes), are VERY VERY specific, guess what, NOT LIKE what is on the 812C at all, really not like. Again, review Figure 6, dramatically different shape.

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They do indicate in the patents that each [paragraph 0025]"aerodynamic element" could be in a different arrangement or shape; that's perplexing given the previous comments in [paragraph 0024] "thanks to the presence of the projecting aerodynamic elements, the downforce generated by the rear spoiler can significantly be increased with a moderate increase in drag; as a consequence, the presence of the aerodynamic elements allows the aerodynamic efficiency of the rear spoiler to be increased to a remarkable extent."

hmm, and then in the next paragraph they basically say, forget these drawings, it could be totally different, basically vacating the entire idea that this patent has any merit at all!

3 times the height for instance, paragraph [0030]...that's not what happened in the 812c

the patent offers zero proof of their claims of generating more downforce, but, proof is not required for a patent application

and, as we plainly see, the 812c "aerodynamic elements" are nothing like the drawing in terms of the design not to mention the indentations in the rear hatch that are particularly obvious from the inside view:

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and, contrary to patent figure 9, at least one 812c review video mentions those moustaches as channeling air sideways rather than at the rear spoiler, unless they were making that up, they probably heard that in the Ferrari briefing. And, no where in the patent does it describe that 'feature'...again, decorations, call them whatever you like, make up stuff, doesn't matter. The rear spoiler is taller than the 812SF plus it is facing, at the rear quarter panels, the airflow off the sides of the car, so, that's probably where the majority if not the entirety of the extra downforce is provided by.
Start at 2m, 30s:



Compare to this upclose photo of the rear hatch (plus there are indentations in the hatch, those are not shown nor contemplated in the patent):

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Again confirming the decorations on the rear hatch are just for show. The camera mounting probably provides more vortex generation than any of the moustaches...which is still essentially zero unless the hatch is lifted into the airflow...per the patent...

I will attached the full patents (PDF) to this posting so you can review.

Here are weblinks:
https://it.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=it_IT&DB=it.espacenet.com&ST=singleline&query=IT201900016160A1&Submit=RICERCARE

https://it.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=it_IT&DB=it.espacenet.com&ST=singleline&query=IT201900016157A1&Submit=RICERCARE

 

Thank you for dumbing down your advanced scientific mind for us cretins


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Thank you for sharing the patents.
The patents show a design with two elements. One are the Vanes (what Ferrari has called Vortex Generators) and the other is a movable rear deck lid. The moveable rear deck lid is an element purely for drag reduction and works like DRS and stalls the rear wing. Ferrari did not implement this element in 812C.
The vanes create downforce over the back corners of the car by pushing air there and making use of the full width design of the wing. Once again I will suggest that you focus not on the terminology used (vortex generators) but on the function of these vanes. Given how fluids flow I am sure these vanes create vortexes of their own and Ferrari is technically not wrong to call them Vortex Generators but they are not meant to do what vortex generators are doing in all the videos you are sharing. Just because these Vanes/Vortex Generators behave differently from traditional vortex generators in automative use does not mean that they are complete bunk.
I will end by repeating what I said above:
The point that I will agree with you is to question the overall need to introduce them on a road car but then each Ferrari has to come with its own theatre and special calling card and there is always a balance between form and function. But to simply google the word Vortex Generators and then call BS on Ferrari Engineering is a bit of a stretch.

P.S. I am also happy to believe that these are complete bs if a Ferrari fluid engineer comes here and says so or if someone qualified sets up a proper CFD model and proves that it is so but pattern matching with a different use case based on semantics is a flawed approach imho.

 

Does somebody know if the carbon bar on the hood can be ordered in colored carbon to match the body paint or even be painted ?

 

I don’t know if Ferrari would entertain carbon to match your paint but will probably allow the standard carbon color options.


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