Mercedes withdraws appeal | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Mercedes withdraws appeal

Discussion in 'F1' started by Nembo1777, Dec 16, 2021.

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  1. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Yes, of course it's correct. No rules were broken, by anyone.


    15.3: "The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race
    Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may
    give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:
    ..
    e) The use of the safety car
    "


    48.13: "When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR
    IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange
    lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be
    entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
    "


    Bottom Line: The safety car is under COMPLETE CONTROL of the Race Director, who is given "overriding authority" directly by the Sporting Regs. No gray area, no wiggle room, no ambiguity whatsoever ... and no rules were broken.

    (which is, of course, why all protests and appeals quickly collapsed)
     
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  2. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Seems like he broke no rules.

    As far as if he did anything 'wrong' - that is something I admit I am still open to hearing both sides.
     
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  3. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    No rules were broken, given the full and complete authority of the Race Director to control the safety car.

    The debate centers on this rule:

    48.12: "If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW
    OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that
    have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety
    car.
    "

    In Abu Dhabi, the Race Director allowed those cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to "un-lap", but did not demand that all lapped cars must un-lap.

    So ... does the word "any" in 48.12 necessarily mean "all"?

    Please note that, legally and grammatically, "any" and "all" are not synonyms. Should the rule-writers have meant "all", they could have easily written "all" or "any and all". Finally, even if there is ambiguity ... who exactly is given "overriding authority" to resolve any such ambiguity, according to the sporting regs??

    Some have also argued that "all" cars were allowed to un-lap in most (if not all) previous F1 races, so therefore "precedent" should over-rule section 15.3 (above)
     
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  4. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    If we are going to parse down the legalities of words like 'any' and 'all' can someone please explain to me why Max was not penalized for overtaking Lewis during the yellow flag? It may have only been a few inches but that is more than enough to decide a dead heat over a finish line and there was no reason for Max to be next to Lewis as he was. Of course they are all pushing the boundaries of what is allowed when preparing for the re-start but overtaking is incredibly easy to determine and there is ZERO doubt that under yellow flag conditions Max overtook Lewis.

    Certainly not the most sporting thing to say but if precision matters that much then the margin of tolerance should be zero. Sorry guys many of you want to have it both ways.

    The weights of the cars are like this. If you are light by the smallest margin measurable by the scale then you are disqualified. Absolutely no margin is permitted. Max had 100% control to hang back as far as he wanted but he chose to drive up next to Lewis. If he judged wrong by even a bit and overtook him then he should be penalized.

    Just playing devil's advocate :D
     
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  5. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ

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    He wasn't overtaking, but taking evasive action as Lewis brake-checked him.
     
  6. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    What's worse ...

    Verstappen gaining an inch under yellow ... and immediately giving it back
    <or>
    Hamilton gaining a position advantage in Lap One ... by going fully OFF track ... and never giving it back?

    (by the way, the grammatical difference between "any" and "all" is not slight)
     
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  7. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    How exactly does one take evasive action due to braking when the car doing the 'brake check' is NEXT TO YOU? This answer will be fun :)

     
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  8. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

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    Don't try to change the scenario. Just answer the question.
     
  9. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    When they were side-by-side ... was MV on-and-off throttle, or was LH on-and-off brake? Serious question, i haven't seen the telemetry.
     
  10. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    LOL

    "The question" compared the grammatical difference of "any" and "all" ... to Max gaining an inch under yellow, and immediately giving it back (???)
    My answer compared Max gaining an inch under yellow, and immediately giving it back .... to Hamilton illegally gaining a full position, off-track, and never giving it back.

    Do you really not understand which analogy is better?

    English isn't your first language, is it?
     
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  11. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

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    He asked a question, why was Max not penalized. You have yet to answer. Stop playing english teacher and answer the question.
     
  12. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ

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    Glad to see the humorectomy was successful, especially in this time when so many procedures are being deferred. Sincerely, congratulations.
     
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  13. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ

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    #63 JJ, Dec 16, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
    Because he immediately gave back both any AND all advantage gained, just like Louis on lap 1.
     
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  14. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Explain to me how "any" versus "all", grammatically .... compares to Max gaining a temporary inch under yellow :rolleyes:

    "any" versus "all" is not ambiguous, it's not "temporary", and it's nothing "done" by either driver. Therefore, the question you're desperately hanging onto is nonsensical, and has no meaning.

    Now ... tell me why Hamilton was allowed to illegally gain a sustained position in lap one (much like the sustained, long-lasting grammatical difference between "any" and "all").
     
  15. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    All four of Anglo-centric Autosport.com’s front page stories today are about Hamilton, Wolff and/or Mercedes. No mention of World Champion Max Verstappen.:rolleyes:
     
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  16. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Well now, imagine that! Who could have guessed? ;)
     
  17. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    My apologies if I missed the humorous tone in your posting. I meant nothing ill about it and just missed that it was a joke. I'm just here to have some fun and engage in some dialogue with fellow enthusiasts.
     
  18. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ

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    All good! My reply was a bit of a joke, too! Yes, it's all in good fun. :)
     
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  19. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Over the years it’s happened plenty of times when cars ever so slightly and crucially momentarily edged ahead, it’s not been punished. It’s an unwritten rule but I think basically if ahead for not even the minisector (200 meters) it’s not even looked at.
     
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  20. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    All four headlines are in the whiny genre...

    Wolff has “no interest” in talking to Masi
    Todt*: Mercedes “deserved more reward” for 2021 season
    Mercedes hopes “disillusioned” Hamilton doesn't walk away from Formula 1
    Hamilton, Wolff to miss FIA prize giving gala




    *Note to Ferrari: Please don’t take back this gnome.
     
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  21. absostone

    absostone F1 World Champ
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    Im watching the gala. Nice ceremony/ presentation for Todt.
     
  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    No wonder merc and Lewis fans are so pissed.i bet they wished they got that very pretty throphee.
     
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  23. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Former Mercedes employee that doesn't seem to have snorted copious amounts of salt but instead just shows up and takes pictures with his rivals. Amazing and sporting!
     
  24. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    James Alisson gracious in defeat. At least one current Mercedes employee has a spine!
     
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  25. absostone

    absostone F1 World Champ
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    Looks like a role model to me. Congrats Max and thank you.
    On a side note. Im actually disappointed the other role model didnt show up.
     
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