Clause 15.3 and why Masi broke the rules

That's great news. Then Mercedes-Benz can initiate a successful appeal, can't they?

 

There would be no point. The positives from overturning the championship would be outweighed by the negatives.

 

Well, I'm glad you can speak for the Mercedes-Benz team.

What are the negatives however?

Because if the result was wrong then the result needs to be overturned.

I think I'm living in a parallel universe.

 

Another Pro Elton Troll.

Joins forum a day ago, claims he's a lawyer, only posts Elton related tripe.

If Merc had such an easily winnable case they'd pursue it. After all they spend 100s of million trying to win both titles.

 

The negatives are Redbull would be affected when they didn’t do anything wrong.

The only reason you would overturn an outcome is if Redbull were complicit.

The FIA is the problem here, not Redbull.

The race logically cannot be run again, so ergo, Mercedes does not gain anything by appealing.

And speaking of a parallel universe, you and others on here continue making awful bad faith arguments that literally only come from the love of Max becoming world champion and Lewis losing. The furor is not about Redbull. It is about the FIA. Redbull just happened to be the benefactors. This has nothing to do with Max at all, who’s driving was stellar.

If the teams were reversed and Lewis had won in this exact manner, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

It would be thread after thread after thread attacking every facet of his character in the most nastiest, destructive way possible. We both know that is true. Because that already happens on here constantly. Literally nothing Lewis has done has him deserving of the amount of of hate he gets.

So arguing this is so tiresome. Some simply will not listen to reason.

 

What makes him (or her) a "troll"? 'Same as my being called a "troll" in the past, which I'm not.
Someone posting something you don't care for doesn't indicate a "troll".....just someone with a different opinion than yours.

re: your "Joins forum a day ago, claims he's a lawyer, only posts Elton related tripe." sounds more like a "troll" than TG33's to me.
You have absolutely no evidence that he's not a lawyer.
And so what if he's a fan, or not, like myself, but still defends LH.....with sound reasoning, against the childish, "trollish", mudslinging.....because it's reasonable so to do?"
I read his posts and see no "tripe".

Who, exactly, are the trolls? I have my opinion on that matter.

 

You’re making all these up

Olympians get their medal years later if there was a wrong. Nothing wrong with that. If there a wrong. In this case not so

The proper experts have withdrawn their case.

 

Can you offer your services to merc? Please help them.

 

And I am sure said olympians has hundreds of millions tied up into a result with checks already paid, schedules already set etc etc.

An alloy medal given post event is not even in the same ballpark. Why even make such an analogy.

 

The timing.

 

Maybe turkeyboy is knt’s alter ego.

 

You have nearly had a whole week to frame your argument against the guy who had minutes to make sure it was safe to continue racing, get cars out of the championship leaders way, and ensure a racing lap was available for the championship to be decided under racing conditions.

I am sure the rule maker’s would give the race director the benefit of the doubt if his intentions were for a fair race. Yes you could argue that he made a mistake but he was charged with requirement of making decisions on the spot, some you win some you lose, good competition depends on the risks…

 

Yet another sour grapes thread.

Mercedes withdrew their protest. Why? Because they realized they hadn't a case.

 

I usually don't get involved in these discussions, because they are so passionate and often it is a pissing contest, not relying on facts, just emotions.
But, I disagree.

Among other reasons, there was no way the FIA would ever admit to such a colossal mistake and overturn a WDC after the fact. This is not a real court, where the evidence IMHO was overwhelmingly in favor Mercedes. This is no different than NASCAR which regulates itself. So call it good sportmanship if you like, but the fact is Mercedes would never have overturned the result even if Masi had shown up and said he made a mistake.

No matter who I rooted for, I would have wanted the championship to be decided under the rules. The asterisk associated with the 2021 WDC will fade, people will only remember the winner years from now. Max will add championships to his record; he is simply the most talented driver on the circuit today. As he matures, he will only get better at all the aspects of racing.

No bad motive attributable to Masi, just a screw up on the rules affecting the final outcome of the entire season.

BTW, if the new president of the FIA wants to punish Lewis for violating the rules and not showing up to the gals (which has NO EFFECT on the racing season or standings), what should happen to Masi who absolutely violated 48.12???

Have at it tifosi!!

Regards,
Jerry

 

The OP is right on the money with his legal assessment. Lots of people have been using section 15.3 as the overriding blanket argument that Masi can do whatever he wants and therefore no rules were broken. This is an incredibly short-sighted approach and proof positive of why most people are not cut out to deal in law. Fact is that 15.3 works together with section 48. In addition historical precedent goes a long way to determining the validity of a decision. As it was (championship on the line or not) there was nothing unusual about the yellow flag incident that warranted new rules to be applied.

Furthermore all this talk about the gentleman's agreement between the teams to end a race under green is nothing more than a preference. Find me one official document where teams are ok with throwing out the rule book and precedent in order to get a race to end under yellow. The mere notion is absurd.

Regarding Mercedes dropping the appeal, Phil is absolutely correct. Mercedes would be fighting an uphill battle to have the FIA essentially rule against itself without having RedBull as a complicit participant to throw blame towards. Even if they did win, the wave of public opinion would be against them making them ALWAYS look like the bad guy. Not the kind of attention Mercedes would want. Toto Wolff said it best that there is a difference between being right and justice. Winning in court would only prove you were right but no justice would be served.

Some of you may remember the 2002 Indy 500 where black and white, clear as day, and supported by camera images Paul Tracy passed Helio before the track went yellow. Despite this IRL ruled Helio the winner and the team protested. They spent a ton of money to prepare what appeared like an air tight defense only to be told nope we won't look at it. Challenging another team in appeal is possible but challenging the rule makers historically has been like climbing a wet glass wall. It would not surprise me in the least that this reality was told to Mercedes in no uncertain terms by the FIA in the days leading up to the appeal deadline.

 

No rules were violated by Masi or race control. Prior to the race they agreed that if an incident occurred they would end the race under green flag conditions and they enacted 15.3 to achieve this as they had all discussed, including Mercedes prior to the race. Mercedes didn’t pit to save track position and RB gambled with the pit and won.

 

That is exactly the point. The fact that the race director was faced with limited time to make a decision is even MORE reason for him to rely on precedent and experience to make his decision. I reiterate that there was nothing about the safety car incident that would require an innovative ruling. It should have been business as usual for the RD and this was not a difficult decision.

 

I'm surprised that there are actually fans who would have wanted Lewis to win. I don't get it.

 

You’ve gotta love attorneys. Sir, absolutely no one cares that you’re attorney, NO ONE. You know no more about the F1 sporting rules than anyone else on this forum. I’m a ditch digger and I think Max won the world title because he drove better and MBZ were forced to make a bad strategy call, brought on by fate, nothing more.

 

What, pray tell, does the timing of someone deciding to join the discussion have to do with their intent in intelligent posts regarding "trolling"?
Again, just because you disagree doesn't mean it's "trolling".

I'd really like to read a rational explanation.....I just joined the thread and I'm not "trolling". 'Just looking for an adult response.

 

Once more.....I'd like to see a rational explanation of that statement rather than an emotional one.

I'm one. He led the whole race and was denied because of Masi.

 

He was denied because Mercedes didn’t pit and RB did.

 

Not so. Masi decided to let the lapped cars thru on lap 57. The rules state that on the lap (57 in this case) the lapped cars are past the safety car, it is to enter pit lane at the end of the next lap (in this case lap 58, the last lap). Thus, it would have been LH winning. Zip, nadda, nothing to do with LH not pitting.

 

Do you live your entire life with blinders on to facts you dislike or is this limited to F1?