Mercedes withdraws appeal | Page 10 | FerrariChat

Mercedes withdraws appeal

Discussion in 'F1' started by Nembo1777, Dec 16, 2021.

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  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    IMO, Mercedes didn't drop their case because they had no argument, but rather because they didn't want to drag the issue through the courts and potentialy win on appeal months after the event.

    In any case, the wrongdoing at Abu Dhabi cannot be put right and in the interest of the sport in general, it's better to let the matter rest.

    People will remember Verstappen's first title being "gifted" to him in a massive blunder by an incompetent official.

    The same individual who sanctioned 2 laps behind a safety car as a "race" in Belgium! Another farcical decision.
     
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  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Convenient.

    In any case, the wrongdoing at Abu Dhabi cannot be put right and in the interest of the sport in general, it's better to let the matter rest.

    Not really, especially if you look at the season and race objectively. Max wasn't gifted the lead, he still had to overtake Lewis who decided not to defend. Lewis had the opportunity to pit as well but they decided to play it safe. Had the accident been cleared up quicker (an entirely realistic possibility), Lewis would still have been overtaken and Max still would've been champion, as the reality is, Red Bull pitted Max and Mercedes did not.

    His championship is untainted. Perhaps by a few Lewis fans it isn't. I'm sure in 30 years time a grey and balding Lewis will have taken the spot of Damon Hill and moan to his British fanclub every other week about how he was ''robbed'' at the last season if it wasn't for that evil Dutch fella. Conveniently forgetting all the help he had from the FIA that season.

    You can moan all you like, you and your cronies can write all the nonsense that pops up in your head about how Max isn't a real champion, the fact of the matter is that he won it despite the efforts against him all season.
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    irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Disallow the race, Max is still champion.
     
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  3. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This has nothing to do with Max Verstappen, but the way F1 has been run in 2021.

    I have no problem with Verstappen and I certainly don't hate him like you do Hamilton.
     
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  4. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    I do find it funny that after all the **** FIA/Masi did all season, all of a sudden it becomes an outrage because Lewis is affected. When everything went against Max? It was all fine, and those at the time claiming FIA/Masi where incompetent dildos where all ''conspiracy theorist''. Lets not forget, at the very start of the final race the FIA deemed no penalty neccessary for a clear huge advantage track cut for Lewis, whereas the race before Verstappen received a double penalty for the same infringement. Even the utterly biased Hamilton fanzone commentators where amazed it didn't result in at least the place given back.

    Spare me the outrage, I have zero interest in feeling sympathy for so called wrong doing and how Lewis was ''robbed''. If it wasn't for the FIA interference, or indeed Mercedes interference, the championship would've wrapped up well before Abu Dhabi.
     
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  5. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    The inconsistency will always be questioned for Yas.

    The unpunished running LH off the track in Brazil - Max the silly nerve to say after the race he never gets gifts LOL!!

    Not much went against Max overall this season.

    He won a title on the last lap with a ruling that will always be questioned and would be if Ferrari had won it this way. The FIA action is why its being questioned.

    Max was not the fastest car at Yas by any means. He has a title because of this ruling enacted by the mask covered face below. That is not at all in question.

    My statement would be the same if Max was in the lead at the time.



    Masi ruling contradicts previous lapped car clarification

    Date published: December 14 2021 - Henry Valantine

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    The ruling of Michael Masi to allow selected lapped runners past the Safety Car in Abu Dhabi goes against a precedent he set in 2020.

    The 2020 Eifel Grand Prix at the Nurburgring drew complaints from the drivers when a Safety Car had been deployed for a lengthy period of time during the race, when there were worries that the McLaren of Lando Norris – who had suffered an engine failure – would catch fire, given the visible burns on the bodywork at the time with smoke also coming out of the car.

    Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen were the two front-running cars during that race as well, but they complained at the duration of the Safety Car period because of the negative effect of slower speeds on a cold track surface was having on their tyre temperatures.

    Masi defended his actions at that point and, given the fact all lapped runners were able to pass the Safety Car and get away – but there was a particular ruling he went on to seemingly contradict at the weekend:

    “There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past,” Masi said at the time.

    This directly goes against what he opted to do in Abu Dhabi, whereby only the lapped runners positioned between Hamilton and Verstappen on track were allowed to un-lap themselves.
     
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  6. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I predicted Verstappen to win this year, if you remember, so I have no problem with him taking the title.

    I only wish it had happened in better circumstances, and not through some last minute manipulation.

    The way the FIA and Masi have administered the championship in 2021 has been nothing but inconsistent.

    I hope 2022 will be different, and it may be more unpredictable with the new formula.
     
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  7. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Here we go again.

    Again we go back to what was agreed by all teams and the FIA, in a situation where possible, they would do their very best to finish under green conditions. This was made.

    And previously it was not unusual to see only car X Y or Z to unlap themselves.

    Regarding Brazil: Both drivers went off track, and Lewis overtook Max in the end anyways. Had they given Max a 5 second penalty, he'd simply have kept the gap to Bottas.

    Not much went against Max? We can start at the first race when Lewis was allowed to cut the track 29 or so times with zero interference from the FIA, but the moment Max did it suddenly the FIA woke up and started giving warnings *or else*.

    The rear wing new rules. Almost the whole season without their trick wing, but for the same front wing on the Merc, deafening silence.

    Pitstop adjustments. Half the season with new idiotic regulations because "safety" (despite being the safest team in the pit with the system that was banned...a system Mercedes couldn't implement because of homologation of parts for the start of the season).

    The very suspicious Mercedes rear suspension drop that doesn't happen like it's natural. The DRS wing (admittedly this was near the end of the season but FIA ignored it none the less), the rocket ship engine that allowed enormous top speeds despite running the very highest downforce package. Not a peep.

    Lets focus on the real **** here:

    Lewis made many mistakes all season. He lost the title in Imola, Monaco, Baku, Austria, Turkey...take your pick.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #233 william, Jan 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
    I grant you that Mercedes lost its efficiency last year.

    It's tactics that served it so well in the past, was found wanting in 2021.

    True that Hamilton himself made more mistakes than in previous seasons. Baku was a massive blunder.

    But when he approached the "grand finale", Hamilton was still neck-and-neck with Verstappen.
     
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  9. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie




    Since when has the FIA remained consistent ?
     
  10. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Yes hopefully lessons learned on many subjects for the FIA. New season should be alot of fun! Cannot wait!! :)
     
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  11. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    never, but it's now an issue because 1 decision supposed harmed ''the chosen one''.
     
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  12. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Snowflake season
     
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  13. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    It's happened before, Prost won a WDC under a dubious decision by Balestre.

    S**t happens. Move on
     
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  14. Phil~

    Phil~ F1 Rookie
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    FIA probably paid off Merc to keep quiet. Wouldn't be the first time.
     
  15. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
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    To me, skipping the awards ceremony is just like taking a knee during the national anthem.

    I’m going to see how many baby bottles Amazon will ship to Mercedes for me (I have a .de account), the gift card will read something like:

    “To Toto and Lewis, based on your poor sportsmanship and choosing to not attend the awards ceremony, here are your 2022 water bottles. Signed; your former F1 Fans”
     
  16. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    I find that most people who insist on looking at this as a Max vs. Lewis or Red Bull vs. Mercedes issue immediately lose sight of the matter at hand and lose the ability to be objective.

    What are the facts? :

    - 2 drivers (call them A & B) arrived at the last race of the year tied in points. I don't think anyone argues this and prior to the start of the race everyone seemed to be happy to have the championship decided at the final race.

    - The FIA was very public about wanting the championship to be decided in a sporting manner and not politically.

    - During the race and up to the final yellow flag period, none of the teams seemed aggrieved as to the proceedings or showed any inclination of wishing to protest the results. Essentially up to the safety car everyone was in agreement that the race was proceeding in a call it 'sporting enough' manner to call the result acceptable.

    - When the incident occurred, the FIA had 4 options at its disposal all supported by rule and precedent:

    1. Throw a red flag and have a short re-start dash to the finish.
    2. Finish the race under yellow
    3. Try for a 1 lap re-start by leaving lapped cars in place
    4. Try for a 1 lap re-start by allowing the 8 lapped cars to un-lap themselves

    I think anyone can agree that regardless of the race outcome, these 4 choices were all defendable courses of action by the FIA

    - The FIA initially announced that they would proceed with option 3. Had they chosen option 4 at the same time, there would have been enough time to follow the written procedures to allow all lapped cars past the pace car.

    - With the passage of time, options to the FIA disappeared. Option 1 almost immediately disappeared once the safety car was announced and option 4 disappeared after about 1 lap of safety car.

    - Part way through the final lap where it was possible to still re-start the race without option #2, the FIA took a decision that has never been done before and for which there were no special circumstances that would require a different application of the rules. Regardless of the outcome it is THIS DECISION that is the point of contention. Add on the fact that it also fundamentally affected the outcome of the championship and you start to understand why there is so much controversy.

    That was fact, now for some of my opinions (based on 30 years of International racing):

    - Neither driver A or B did anything wrong. Both did the best with what they were presented with

    - There was no conspiracy to advantage either driver A or B

    - The race director made a hasty decision based on direct pressure from the team managers of driver's A and B (I think it is universally accepted that team managers should not have direct contact with the race director during a race)

    - Had the race and championship been decided because any of the 4 presented options were applied then the result would be just

    - The decision of the race director to only allow some lapped cars passed is not supported by the rules as a whole (not just parsing out one or two words in one sub-section; law does not work like that) nor was it supported by the race directors previous actions and statements to defend such actions.

    - The argument that the teams all agreed to finish the race under green is nonsense. The teams agreed that it is their 'preference' to finish a race under green. The underlying belief is always that this is done by maintaining both safety and by following the rulebook to do so. Again it is a preference not an absolute to be done at any cost.

    - There does not exist any mechanism to fix the error of the officials which makes this a tricky situation for all involved.

    I'd be happy to entertain a lively discussion on the merits of what happened and how it could have been avoided but I'm not interested if all it will be is a Max vs. Lewis debate that dredges up the past to justify what happened at Abu Dhabi.
     
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  17. Phil~

    Phil~ F1 Rookie
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    Masi wasn't bowing to pressure from Toto and Horner. He was bowing to pressure from the FIA. Remember, he initially made the call to not let the cars unlap themselves. I fully believe the next call came from the FIA directly to clear Verstappen's way towards Hamilton.
     
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  18. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Usually it's Merc sweetening the FIA in order to look the other way ;)

    And did someone mention Merc safety car monopoly ?
     
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  19. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    The confusing part for many is that the ''cars are not allowed to unlap themselves'' is quite normal, it's only when the race director decides that cars may overtake the message is displayed.

    The FIA stewards have ZERO weight in telling the race director to do anything. Especially with Gary Connelly at the helm that weekend, he would not have instructed Masi to allow cars to unlap.

    Could the fact that 3 of the 5 cars that where between Lewis and Max where all in some way connected to Mercedes have played a part? I would say it's a possibility.

    Norris - Mercedes powered
    Ocon - Wolff managed
    Vettel - Mercedes Powered

    So, had he decided to not allow anyone pass, and Max had to overtake those 3 AND Leclerc + Alonso, all those cars fighting for position, even if 1 of those (Mercedes associated) drivers held up Max for 1 corner that would've been enough to secure the title...and questions would be raised.

    Had all cars been led through, would there have been enough time? I think so yes. But what was say Russell to do Lewis a favour and hold up Max in a similar fashion like Perez did (the difference being Perez was fighting for position) or worse, actually tap Max and spin/crash him? Again, questions would be raised.

    The accident wasn't serious enough to put up a red flag, either.

    Masi didn't swap positions. Max had fresh tyres, yes, but Lewis had the faster (race) car and track position. With what Perez had shown earlier in the race on worn softs, holding up Lewis on new tyres, a 7x WDC at least fighting Max for position doesn't sound like a far fetched impossibility.

    Alas, Lewis failed to defend the position completely, and Max made history.


    Masi was going to get **** with whatever decision he made. Even if he let all cars through, I'm 100% convinced the exact same conversation would still be had right now, how the unlapping was unethical ''all things considered''. I'll point everyone back to Imola 2021 where Hamilton (legally) benefitted from an unlapping event after being nearly 2 laps down.
     
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  20. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yep, 1989 - Suzuka--> Prost -Senna collision.
     
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  21. Phil~

    Phil~ F1 Rookie
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    Eh, unlikely. I think you are looking to much into it.

    It’s much more likely that someone high up in the FIA (not stewards) told Masi to remove the cars, simply to get the photo finish of Hamilton going wheel to wheel with Verstappen. It makes no sense otherwise. It’s not as exiting seeing Verstappen trying to chase down Hamilton after he got passed the lapped cars, as Hamilton would have been gunning it up the road and would have won easily because Max wouldn’t have
    DRS.

    And Lewis didn’t fail to defend the position, he simply didn’t have the tires to put up a fight. He did that move to set up an attack down the straight, and he came pretty close, but it was a forgone conclusion. He couldn’t put up any real defense in the corners, Max would have just crashed him out and win anyway.

    When Masi called the Safety car in on the same lap I knew Hamilton was going to lose.

    Again, I agree that Masi had little to do with this particular call. It has the FIA/Liberty….and dare I say it, Netflix all over it. He was just the fall guy.
     
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  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    I'm looking too much into it? You are aware that the FIA has zero interest in a photofinish?

    Could liberty have requested? It's not impossible. But to what gains? I don't see any. And masi has zero to gain or lose by obeying or not.

    Masi acted on what teams and fia collectively decided on: if it's possible (safe) to finish under green, he'll do his best to see it so.

    Lewis was doing fine laptimes before the sc. He could've defended. And it was the very last lap. He could've tried hard.
     
  23. absostone

    absostone F1 World Champ
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  24. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That's debatable, but risking a crash with Verstappen by defending too aggressively wouldn't have been a satisfactory outcome.

    Imagine Max' car ending up on top of Lewis' car, like at Monza, during the last lap, and both being eliminated!

    What the FIA would have made of that? They were on an equal number of points!
     
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  25. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Nail meets head, spot on a excellent summary.
     

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