PPI results. | FerrariChat

PPI results.

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Threeofnine, Jan 10, 2022.

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  1. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    I’m looking at a 1988 TR. Current agreed price is $119k. I had a PPI done and just received the results. Do you see anything you would consider a deal breaker?


    Car Evaluation Information

    Year: 1988 _____________ Make: Ferrari___________ Model: Testarossa_______ Body: Coupe ___________ Mileage: 40,130_________________________ VIN: ZFFSG17A5J0078124 ______________________________ Body Paint Colors: Rosso Corsa _________________ Paint Condition: Overall good, some scratches and chips _

    Paint meter reading: See pictures for all readings, in brief it looks like some paint work has been done on the fenders front and rear but hard to tell how much, remaining paint is original and very thin at places___________

    Roof Material: Steel______________________ Roof Condition: Excellent ______________________________ Chrome: N/A ___________________________ Other Trim: N/A______________________________________

    Body Corrosion / Damage:

    L/F Quarter: No damage or corrosion ______________L/R Quarter: No damage or corrosion _______________ R/F Quarter: No damage or corrosion_______________R/R Quarter: No damage or corrosion _______________ L/F Wheel Arch: No damage or corrosion____________L/R Wheel Arch: No damage or corrosion ____________ R/F Wheel Arch: No damage or corrosion ___________R/R Wheel Arch: No damage or corrosion ____________ Left Rocker Panel: Dent, scrape and deformation _____Right Rocker Panel: Small dent near middle___________ Rear End and Deck: No damage or corrosion_______________________________________________________ L/F Door: Paint defect at body line and side strakes____L/R Door: ______________________________________ R/F Door: Small dent on body line _________________R/R Door:______________________________________ Front Bumper: Small paint chips, lower spoiler damage, slight chips and cracks

    Rear Bumper: No damage/corrosion _______________

    Structural Corrosion / Damage:

    Chassis: No rust, no corrosion, no signs of prior damage or painting ____________________________________ Under Hood: No damage, good condition ___________Trunk: No damage, good condition _________________ Body Mounts: Good condition, no cracking or damage visible

    Floors: No damage or repairs _____________________

    Other: _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Mechanical:

    Compression Readings: N/A not performed – relative compression consistent ____________________________ Engine starting cold: Normal _____________________Starting hot: Normal ____________________________ Idle cold: 1600 RPM_____________________________Idle warm: 1200 RPM____________________________ Clutch: Feels strong, proper play, no slipping ______________________________________________________ Noises: None present _________________________________________________________________________ Oil level: Full, good _____________________________Oil appearance: Good condition____________________ Leaks: Minor leak at valve cover oil drain back pipes ________________________________________________ Radiator: Good condition, no damage, no leaks ____________________________________________________ Coolant level: Full, good _________________________Coolant appearance: Good ________________________ Hose / Belt condition: All hoses and belts visually look good and are not soft, no leaks present_______________ P/S – P/B – A/C if so equipped: Belts visual show no signs or cracking or drying ___________________________ Exhaust Manifold / System: No leaks, no cracks visible, no damage _____________________________________ Transmission Type: 5 speed gated __________ Fluid level: Full ___________ Fluid condition: Good, clean ____ Leaks: Small leak at shift shaft seal, no leaks at pan________________

    Shifting light acceleration: normal, smooth _________ Shifting hard acceleration: normal, smooth ___________ Brake Type: Brembo disc, not factory _____ Fluid level: In range ________ Fluid condition: Dirty ___________ L/F mm remain: 10 ______ L/R mm remain: 11 ______ R/F mm remain: 11 ______R/R mm remain: 11 ______ Disk wear: minimum specification is 32mm, all at 31.70mm

    Master Cylinder: No leaks, good pressure ____________ Lines: SS braided, no leaks, no visible damage________ Other: ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pedal feel: Peddle is a little soft at the top_________ Pedal effort required: Normal for car, good grip ________ Rear suspension: Bushings dry/cracking but tight currently Rear shocks: No leaks, good action, normal wear

    Front suspension: Same as rear_______________ Front shocks: Same as rear

    Steering rack: tight bushings, no leaks, no play at all _________________________________________________

    Car Evaluation Information Page 2 of 4

    Steering control arms etc.: Arms are tight, no damage _______________________________________________ Play in steering: Zero play, very tight steering ______________________________________________________ Rear differential: No noise or leaks, no damage ______Rear axle shafts: tight, no slop, boots good, no noises __ ECU scan results: N/A _________________________________________________________________________ Electrical:

    Fuse box: no hot spots, no visible damage ___________Ignition: Good ignition, plugs have normal wear_______ Wiring: All visible wiring and connections looks in good on condition____________________________________ Battery and cables: Battery looks good, cables good ___ Load test: 800+ CCA in two tests - good ____________ Exterior lights: All operational, no lenses cracked, front side marker and tail lamps have surface crazing _______ Charging system: charging at 14V@ idle, no deviations _______________________________________________ Other electrical: trunk and engine bay lights not operational __________________________________________

    Heating, vents, and air conditioning:

    Heater type: Coolant over heater core _____________Function notes: Cannot change mode _______________ Vents: Vents operational and move, R/S slight crack ___Function notes: Cannot change mode _______________ A/C type: 134 Freon converted ___________________Function notes: Cold at vents _____________________

    Interior:

    Front seat structure: No damage, driver tilt function hard to operate

    Front seat upholstery: Leather, good condition, a little dry ____________________________________________ Rear seat structure: N/A _________________________ Rear seat upholstery: N/A ________________________ Headliner material: Leather ______________________ Headliner condition: Slight sagging_________________ Dash covering: Leather, a little dry _________________Rear / shelf / trunk: Normal wear, good condition _____ Front carpet: Driver side marginal, passenger side is good, OEM mats Rear carpets: N/A ___________________

    Door trim:

    L/F: Leather, normal wear_ R/F: Leather, normal wear

    Other trim: ash tray is missing, seatbelt track cover trim not secure at rear on both side ____________________

    Windows:

    L/F: Operational, normal __ R/F: Operational, normal__

    Car Evaluation Information Page 3 of 4

    Tire condition:

    L/F: (1417) 8mm tread, slight leak L/R: (3820) 7mm tread R/F: (4219) 8mm tread

    R/R: (3820) 7mm tread

    Other:

    Trunk: Good condition___________________________Tools: Kit present _______________________________ Gauges: All working and lit and appear reasonable accurate___________________________________________ Speedometer: Good _____ AM / Volt: _____________ Oil pressure: Good _______ Fuel: Good _____________ Tachometer: Good_______ Clock: Good ____________ Coolant: Good __________Oil temp: Good __________ Radio: Faulty, screen turns on momentarily, goes blank and non-responsive (aftermarket)

    Driving Notes:

    Test drive conditions: Dry 65 degrees ______________Drivers: Kyle ___________________________________ Length of drive: 10 miles ______________________________________________________________________ Steering: Positive, responsive _____________________Ride quality: Firm on both shock settings_____________ Braking: Soft braking at top of travel causes initial brake to be abrupt ___________________________________ Engine performance: Normal, strong, smooth ______________________________________________________ Other driving notes: Overall car drives very nice ____________________________________________________

    Additional notes in no specific orders:

    • Transmission reverse lookout does not work correctly

    • Left windshield wiper washer nozzle does not spray

    • Overhead buttons for rear defrost and fog laps not operating

    • Head lamp stalk not operating properly

    • Door seal rubbers have cuts and damage

    • Wheel center caps cracked and faded

    • Rim are not original to a Testarossa



    Overall, the car is a solid car it just needs some proper attention to detail to bring it back up to a very nice. Paint will have only a few polishings in areas before it burns through. See paint readings.
     
  2. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    A gas analysis and compression check is needed.
     
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  3. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    He said they did a type of compression test. I will ask about the gas analysis. He’s supposed to call me shortly and I’ll bring this up. The car is is still at the shop until tomorrow.
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Ask for ALL the numbers from each cyl on the comp test. Confirm if it was done hot or cold…. wet or dry. This will ID a tired or damaged engine.

    A leakdown test is good as well…. but is more effort.

    ALL the numbers from the gas analysis. This will ID a poor ‘major’ that did not get the cam timing right. Many out there just swap out the belts and it guarantees it is only ‘close’. If it is not ‘close enough’, it won’t pass smog in many states.
     
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  5. EZORED

    EZORED Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 24, 2007
    1,042
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    Probably need new brake rotors
    Does glove box open with switch?
    fog light switches require head lights to be on to work. same with trunk and hood lights
    Check the hood and engine lid shocks
    Should really pull the Y connector on the fuse box and visually check for burning
    how old are the tires?
    Head lamp stalks are hard to find, check the internet for cost.
     
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  6. V4NG0

    V4NG0 Formula Junior

    Dec 14, 2018
    705
    Full Name:
    Charles Edward Cheese
    I asked for a compression test as part of a PPI for my TR, but the factory tech who performed it said he would only do it if it felt necessary after driving the car. In other words, he could ‘feel’ if the motor was off enough to warrant doing the test. (He had been wrenching on TRs for something like 25 years and had personally owned three examples.) It did not and he did not, saving me a bunch of money. Years later I had a major service done by a different tech and a compression test was included as part of the service. The numbers were excellent, proving the PPI tech correct.

    I’m curious as to @Rifledriver ‘s opinion on this method of analysis for determining the necessity of a compression test. (Anyone else feel free to chime in too.)
     
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  7. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    I believe the glovebox is fine. I spoke with the dealer and they have agreed to fix these issues noted before delivery. I am actually changing out the tires because I don’t like the current ones on the car.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    TR's have a lower incidence of compression issues than many other Ferraris but they are at best 31 years old. Anything can happen in that time. I was factory trained on TRs, have worked on them nearly weekly since 85 and have owned one for a long time. I would never make a statement like he did. There are just too many situations that can be taking place that can be found with a properly performed and evaluated compression test. Plus a TR is nearly the easiest of any Ferrari ever built to do it to. I am not a big fan of this PPI. More energy was spent telling me what Stevie Wonder can see from ten feet was OK than telling me things of importance. It also makes me wonder their experience level on the model.
    2 problems with PPI's. Few do them. Fewer still do them well.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #9 Rifledriver, Jan 10, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022


    A.Never mind..it has Brembos. No wonder. Sounds like the brakes have been beat. Makes me wonder how. OE rotors wore like granite and they were Brembo too.
    B. So what? Who replaces them? We have been rebuilding them for decades. They got so expensive it became worthwhile to fix them. There is a company in California that offers it as one of their services.
     
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  10. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    Do you think I should consider a second PPI? The shop came highly recommended from a valued forum member/parts supplier.
     
  11. EZORED

    EZORED Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 24, 2007
    1,042
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    Are you talking about calipers or rotors. I searched forever to find new front rotors for my 512 tr. I finally found a company called Coleman Racing and had some made for a reasonable price. Did not know you could fix a rotor?

    Does the car that Jared is looking at have the brembo big brake kit. Then parts should be available but the stock wheels will not work.
     
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  12. MaseratiMike

    MaseratiMike Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2016
    350
    UK
    Full Name:
    Mike
    When I bought my Testarossa a few years ago in the UK, I also had a PPI and test drive done by a long experienced Ferrari independent servicing+repairs specialist. They also performed compression tests, irrespective of the overall positive outcome of their visual inspection report and test drive etc. It’s a no brainer and peace of mind, especially as this is a £100k car and not a £1k one…
     
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  13. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    #13 Threeofnine, Jan 10, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
    I spoke to the shop earlier. He said they did a relative compression test and it was good. I don’t know if that’s sufficient, I might ask him to do a regular compression test since he still has the car.
     
  14. MaseratiMike

    MaseratiMike Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2016
    350
    UK
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I would definitely get a regular compression test done, as you should then get a report for each cylinder and should there be broken rings or worn out engine for example it will indicate a problem reading… Relative test doesn’t help you much, if say your engine is worn and all cylinders are worn to the same level.
     
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  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    This was a one size fits all form and not only not tailored to a Ferrari but not tailored to a TR. Due to their expense and even more to their expense of repair I am pretty adamant about Ferrari specific specialists and hopefully someone with extensive experience on the TR inspecting and fixing them. I do not get that feeling here. The days of mechanics and of repair shops being able to really properly look after any car or even any European car are long gone but many never got the word. There are too many TR specific things to look for and not addressed here.
     
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  16. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    Supposedly Ferrari is their primary focus, but I may consider a second opinion PPI.
     
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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If that is true why no specific description of the dash leather condition especially the dash top.? Or the drivers seat bolster?

    How about a date code reading from the timing belts?

    They listed so many things as being "Good" or "Normal" why not describe that spot on the bottom of the front cover where dried coolant collects when a water pump seal is taking a dump?

    Thats a big deal because the motor comes out to fix it.

    Because they don't know to look for them.
     
  18. MaseratiMike

    MaseratiMike Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2016
    350
    UK
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I fully agree with Rifledriver, you need to ideally get a PPI done by someone who knows TRs very well… to avoid potentially an expensive mistake.

    ( Reporting on the paint thickness doesn’t really help as most classic cars will have had work done over the years….) where’s the rest of the detailed information?….
     
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  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Quite a few got paint work before they got to the dealer.Ferrari in period was not well known for great paint work, Then there was the shipping damage.
     
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  20. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Perhaps tell your shop exactly what you want them to check.

    This is a ppi checklist that I put together based on a 360.

    It might give you some ideas for your TR.
     

    Attached Files:

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  21. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    5,520
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Paint condition on a 31 year old car should be at the bottom of the list. Many other more important things to consider. You can't trust odometer reading either.
     
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  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    20,031
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Are looking to buy a used TR or a new one? Every single one you look at will need something. Buy it and deal with the problems as they present themselves.
    If you are looking to get into this game with a 40 year old car..and get out without a scratch..oh boy..are you looking at the wrong car. Not saying not to do your due diligence..but also understand these cars ARE OLD.
     
  23. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,840
    Bologna
    I am curious about the comment that the reverse lockout on the transmission does not work correctly. Odd. If my car is in neutral and at idle, I can shift into reverse pretty easily. Does the TR even have a reverse lockout? (Maybe mine does not work properly, or maybe it does and I operate it with muscle memory without recalling it).

    As well, they removed all 12 plugs to check condition, but didn't do a leak down test? That is half the work right there.

    Finally, is it possible to check the dates on the timing belts without removing the engine?
     
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  24. V4NG0

    V4NG0 Formula Junior

    Dec 14, 2018
    705
    Full Name:
    Charles Edward Cheese
    Fair enough. Would you say it should be mandatory as part of a PPI on any TR, or any old Ferrari for that matter?
     
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  25. Threeofnine

    Threeofnine Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2020
    433
    Birmingham, AL USA
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Heath
    I would’ve been more surprised if it had come back totally perfect. I definitely think the recommendation of a compression test is great advice so I am going to insist on that. I am pretty confident I can handle most problems myself (I do intend to do most maintenance).

    My only real fear would be catastrophic engine failure. I can only imagine how much that would cost… Luckily, I get the impression these engines are pretty reliable.
     

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