The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Again, I love the car. Hate the man.


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Okay, I'll get serious. After all, we're talking about a man's childhood dreams. It's the early '60s, Ford, Lola, and Ferrari are battling it out at Le Mans. There to witness it was a young lad, who saw a fatality driving home one time, or was that when he saw the Miles Davis crash? I get confused. Regardless, the young lad grows up with the dream of owning those fantastic race cars. He is able to buy a Ford. He buys a Lola, but the Ferrari seems to be outside his grasp. There is only one in the world, and it was not for sale, at least not back then. So he goes to David Piper who has to be one of the world's number one expert on these old Ferrari race cars. Mr. Piper it seems had been given permission by the old man to build reproduction Ferrari P4 chassis. Again, as mentioned, in this rarefied world all that matter is Telaio. The chassis. Body parts come and go. Engines blow up. But the chassis is forever. If you have an original chassis and a tach needle, you can be Dr. Frankenstein and create life where none exists.

Humbled, the now grown man goes to David Piper and buys one of his reproduction chassis. A mass of bent tubing known as DP003. He brings it home and hires Saul, arguably one of the best Ferrari mechanics around, to build his dream car. But as the car starts coming together, the man is troubled by one thing after another. Could it be? Is it possible? Instead of DP003, it is possible he actually has 0846? Like pulling Excalibur out of a block of stone, has he found the holy grail? Has he found the last Ferrari sports car that won a major race?

This thread started a long time ago. I was one of the original fan boys. Early on, Mr. Glickenhaus went over minutia after minutia to prove his point. Then slowly, the evil forces started pushing back. Those who don't believe in a dream started saying, "Whoa der ponder. Let's slow dis train down a little bit. All dem pieces to the puzzle ain't fittin together like you say."

My goal here though is to roll the video tape back. How is it possible David Piper ended up with 0846? And, if he did, how is it possible he sold Jim Glickenhaus 0846 instead of DP003?

Before going any further, let's deal with perhaps the one indisputable fact. The shutdown corner in NFL talk.

FERRARI'S OFFICAL WORD IS 0846 NO LONGER EXISTS BECAUSE IT DESTROYED THE CAR AND THREW THE CHASSIS IN THE DUMPSTER.

The very last word from Ferrari is 0846 no longer exists. Thus, it will NEVER recognize any claims to contrary.

Before going any further, please think about the impact of this claim. Ferrari built 0846. It killed 0846. It will not recognize any claims to the contrary. You can zig. You can zag. You can slander my name all over the place. But the official word is 0846 no longer exists. Say what you will. Say what you want. But this is the last word.

So... to buy the argument that Jim Glickenhaus ended up with 0846 instead of DP003, you have to buy into two theories:

1. Somebody "liberated" the poor bones of 0846 from that lonely dumpster. They then crossed multiple borders and got this chassis to David Piper's garage.

2. Over 35 years later, David Piper sold what he knew to be 0846 instead of DP003 to Jim Glickenhaus.

I'm not making little of Steve's arguments that Jim Glickenhaus is wrong. But, to even have that argument, you have to buy into both theories. One, somehow David Piper ended up with 0846, and two, he mistakenly sold it to Jim Glickenhaus.

 

Let's take this one by one:

1. Somebody "liberated" the poor bones of 0846 from that lonely dumpster. They then crossed multiple borders and got this chassis to David Piper's garage.

Frankly, I can see this happening. Things were different back in the '60s. Could this have happened? Of course, it could have. Is it realistic? Beats me. What do you think? To me, someone had to have known the value of those bent tubing thrown in the dumpster. Someone was looking for more than just the scrap value of the metal. Someone had to have known what that chassis was worth. The implication in this narrative is the "someone" is David Piper or somebody like him.

Moreover, that someone was motivated enough to ship this bent tubing across multiple borders to David Piper's garage in England. Here's where things get fuzzy. Without rereading this thread over again, I remember a story here saying Marcel Massini, as a young lad saw, saw a chassis in Swiss customs that looked like what 0846 must have looked like at the time. If this is true, Tom Shaughnessy, the King of the Toasted Ponies, needs to hand his crown to Marcel. This would be the ultimate Ferrari find.

Putting all this aside, buying into this point means accepting the narrative someone took the 0846 chassis out of the dumpster and got it to David Piper. I'm thinking a Mission Impossible operation. Guys in black with black watch caps. Blink the light to show the coast is clear. The lorry pulls up to the dumpster and the team jumps in to start loading the chassis. Then suddenly, the door opens, and the night watchman comes out to have a smoke. Almost busted. Then border after border gets crossed. A wink here, a nod there, with a few pounds changing hands, no questions are asked.

It's the Smugglers Blues.

 

There’s no way I’m going back to the .pdf to verify, but the initial “wait a minute…what if…” came from John H. who was doing some of the bodywork. He saw something unusual on the frame and jumped to conclusions that Jim was more than happy to run with. Steve has systematically shown that those unusual features were exactly what Piper said they were.

 

2. Over 35 years later, David Piper sold what he knew to be 0846 instead of DP003 to Jim Glickenhaus.

The years roll by like dust in the wind. For Jim Glickenhaus's story to be true, not only did 0846 make it to David Piper's garage, but David Piper, who most certainly knew what he would have had, sold a real Ferrari chassis instead of a reproduction he had built. How likely is that?

 

What do you think about the two props I have laid out?

 

Looks good to me, but I’m in HI on holiday, so I just breezed over it.

 

Considering how AM is doing, i wonder if he is regretting it.

 

Enjoy. This is just ****s and giggles.

 

I have no idea who AM is.

 

Aston Martin

 

George Martin, and the Aston hill climb- to be more specific.

 

Sal.

 

I differ with your assessment regarding an X-Ray and analysis of the chassis. I don't believe I'm overestimating in the least.

Apparently to prove something on the internet all you need are some photographs, some measurements, conjecture and red arrows. Conversely, all you need to claim discovery of a rare race car, is to have a like car, a plausible story, some conjecture, loose documentation and a happy ending.

Evidence has been "shown" here, but evidence is not proof, it's just "evidence". And until an actual inspection of the chassis happens, there is reasonable doubt.

I never mentioned any machine or device that Ferrari may have e.g. "Niton XRF X Ray metal analysers, as used by Ferrari Classiche", nor did I suggest that Ferrari should be involved in any way, though, you did.

It is with regret that I only have one eye, I am not fortunate enough to possess two.

 

Glickenhaus can provide all the “irrefutable” evidence he wants, it won’t matter.

Ferrari SpA (Classiche) is Judge, Jury and Executioner period. They’ve Judged it, They’ve Deliberated on it, They’ve passed Sentence on it. The sentence was Execution, which was carried out.

 

I'd say the market is judge, jury and executioner. Should 0846 become available and market valued it at same or higher level than any other of the 330P3/P4 then Ferrari Spa blessing wouldn't matter, would it?

Of course that is a big and improbable if..

 

Exactly which major Auction House would even consider running a car that SpA considered destroyed. RM, Gooding Bonhams? Not a chance, they’re uncomfortable running a chopped Daytona. Would it be accepted on the Field at Cavallino or Pebble (although Amelia has been known to accept complete replicas)?

While there are plenty of people with more money than brains, 90% of those that can stroke the check for cars at this level tend to conduct their due diligence. The market will never accept it until SpA does.

 

Yep


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You mention "reasonable doubt" ... if there is "reasonable doubt" in a murder case, then the accused is determined to be "not guilty".

In the vintage car (or art) world, if there is "reasonable doubt" ... then the car is determined to be a replica. No wiggle room, no gray area, no excuses. It's a REPLICA.

NOTE: Not only is there "reasonable doubt" in this particular case ... there's not a shred of surviving, unrefuted evidence to even suggest that the car is the authentic 0846!!!

"Innocent until PROVEN guilty" <-----> "Replica until PROVEN authentic" (honestly, this is stupid simple stuff)

Does anyone in this thread ... who has read ALL evidence for & against ... really believe that authenticity has been PROVEN beyond "reasonable doubt" ?? Really??

 

Mr Glickenhaus will never provide any "irrefutable" evidence to prove his chassis is the real 0846, as there just isn't any.

 

The only real FACT in all of this is Ferrari saying 0846 is dead. It killed it.

To overcome this FACT, you has to buy into the two premises I outlined above. One, somebody went dumpster diving and stole the 0846 chassis after Ferrari threw it away and got this chassis to David Piper's shop. Two, many years, David Piper mistakenly sold 0846 to Jim Glickenhaus instead of DP003. Frankly, I think the second premise is the most problematic for those who believe 0846 still lives.

 

Ridiculous! Why do you refer to this fake as 0846? It's DP003, and why do you speak of it in the same context as any other 330 P3/P4. It's just a replica with a 3 litre 312 F1 engine. Nothing more. Ferrari SpA will never bless this replica anyway.

 

I don't disagree.

The dumpster-diving tale is a fantasy ... pure speculation ... until PROVEN otherwise.
I could assert the very same dumpster-diving hypothesis, about a Norwood 330P4 replica i purchased 4 years ago ... would the "burden of proof" then magically shift, to anyone trying to disprove my hypothesis?

 

You are failing to understand that the Glickenhaus chassis is not the 0846 chassis and it was not removed from the Ferrari scrap yard. David Piper's chassis that he sold to Mr Glickenhaus is just a P4 replica chassis that was made from scratch by Silvano Cantelli in Italy. It has no connection the the real and scrapped 0846 chassis whatsoever.

 

Maybe you misunderstand me. I agree with you. My point is if you think 0846 still lives, which I don't, you're going to need to refute Ferrari saying it destroyed the chassis. To do so, you have to come up with an argument for how the chassis got from Ferrari's scrap yard to David Piper's shop. And then, you're going to need to come up with an argument for explaining how David Piper sold an original P4 chassis instead of a replica.