Is Lewis Hamilton the greatest of all time, why or why not?

I stated that before Lewis joined Mercedes was the 5th best team. That is correct. 2009 all teams were developing the cars throughout the year. They did not stop developing and wait on Mclaren to get better. Still Hamilton won races with that car. Schumachers Benetton got faster during the year, every one says its because of Schumacher. But if Lewis does it, its the car. Crazy. The reason why the best car story doesn't work is Hamilton has team mates with the same car, but he is the only multiple champion. I doubt that Mercedes is struggling to know how great Hamilton is as you claim, they keep renewing his contract. I doubt Ron Dennis struggled to know how great Hamilton was, or he wouldn't wasted his recourses on him. A great driver will shine in any car. Thats why Hamilton won all wet races for 5 years straight at one point. Schumacher also shined in any car. Fangio only drove for top teams. Never drove a midfield car. Do you struggle to know if Fangio was great?

 

You said the worst team Lewis drove for was Mercedes, the 5th worst car before he arrived. He never drove for Mercedes when they had a bad car. He started to drive for Mercedes when fortunate for him, they had the 2nd best car. Perhaps how you worded it makes it confusing.

Everyone is aware that all teams develop cars during the season. But never in history has a car made that significant of a jump. To go from qualifying 15-16th on the grid, to getting poles and winning races. I'm not talking about a gradual improvement over the course of the season. The McLaren went from being over 1 second slower in Silverstone (Lewis qualified 19th), to being FASTER than the Brawn the very next race and went onto claiming 3 poles in 4 races. Never in history has a car made such an immediate jump in performance.

As for teams investing in him. Well nobody is saying Hamilton isn't a very very good driver. Ron Dennis invested in his British prodigy when he was like 13 years old. Despite landing 2x defending champ Alonso, Dennis still gave an unproven rookie equal status to start, and then favored him for the second half of 2007, which was a mistake. Lewis being the biggest superstar, especially in Britain, leaves McLaren to go to the British based Mercedes and either Lewis just lucked out with his timing, or maybe he was given some insight about how early Mercedes has been developing their hybrid PU which just happened to be key to their domination for 8 years. It's a marketing dream if you are Mercedes. They should have put #1 status to Hamilton much earlier in his stint with Mercedes, but it isn't surprising the German brand wanted their German driver in Rosberg to at least have a chance. Sad to say it, but there are huge politics in F1. It's a no brainer that Mclaren and Mercedes want to keep Hamilton around as long as possible. He's a great driver, it's great for their marketing, and he gets all sorts of advantages other drivers don't. Look how McLaren has locked up Lando Norris for several years. He's a fan favorite, he's been driving great, and it doesn't hurt that he is a British driver, on a British team, in a heavily British market. The rules were thrown out when he botched Sochi because the fans wanted him to win and Alonso called out the FIA's biased.

As for Fangio, can't take away what he did in his era. But I do not rank him very high on the greatest drivers of all time list.

 

Ok, I'll focus on the year Lewis went to Mercedes, they were #2. Which means Bennetton was #3 when Schumacher joined. And Ferrari was #2 when Schumacher joined. Neither Schumacher or Hamilton drove for a team out of the top 3 for a full season (before Schumacher went to Merc).
If you look at the 2009 season Hamiltons team mate was no where near him, Hamilton/Mclaren made the difference and got the wins and podiums.
Your 3rd point about drivers being hired because of popularity, and F1 having politics. marketing etc, no need for me to address these points as this has been happening since the beginning of F1.
You admit to ranking Fangio high on the greatest of all time list even though he only drove the best cars, interesting.

 

Personally, I admire Fangio for having taken 5 WDCs with 4 different teams (Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Mercedes and Ferrari).

One year (1954), Fangio drove for 2 teams in succession and he finished his career with a hattrick with 3 different teams. Nobody ever repeated that.

That shows not only that he dominated his peers, but equally how adaptable a racer he was. His win at the 1957 German GP became the stuff of legend.

That also flies in the face of those who advocate continuity, long term contract, etc ....

 

I too admire Fangio for winning with 4 different teams, I still find it odd that its a problem when Hamilton goes from top team to top team.

 

While I wouldn't call Ferrari the second best team in 1996, it's hardly relevant. There is a big difference to how a team finishes in the WCC vs how competitive the car actually was to compete for poles, wins, and of course championships.

Back to 2009, McLaren got the car to a position to be competitive. Lewis was definitely that extra bit to get that car on the podium and of course take a couple of wins. Heiki could have got pole in the car, as that McLaren qualified 1-2 in Valencia, a race that Heiki was just 0.034 off Hamilton despite having 1 lap more of fuel onboard. Had the strategy been reversed, Kovalainen would have likely been on pole. Then in Italy Heiki qualified 4th to Hamilton's pole, despite having 12 extra laps of fuel on board. I doubt Kovalainen wins races with that McLaren, but he was capable of poles for sure.

I didn't say they get hired because of popularity. I say that's part of a reason to keep them around under long contracts. Especially when there wasn't a budget cap for the teams. Sponsorship money is HUGE. The most popular driver is going to attract the biggest sponsorship dollars. You are absolutely right, it's something that has taken place forever, in any sport.

Read again, I said Fangio is NOT high on my greatest of all time list.

 

Wow I misread your point about Fangio! My fault.
We will agree to disagree about Ferrari being second best team 1996.

 

If you're basing the idea that Hamilton had the 5th best car on the gird in 07' on McLaren's 06' performances, you're really practicing some warped logic.

The McLaren team and car were equal to Ferrari in 07' and 08'. The only time Ham really had a car that wasn't the best and kept it in the WDC hunt was 10', when he took his McLaren that was right with the Ferrari for second fastest on the grid to the season finale.

 

No, you must have misread my post. Its all good.

 

Lewis Hamilton's first season with Mercedes-AMG F1 was 2013 (i.e. one year before the turbo-hybrid). He won but a single race in 2013 (Hungary). Certainly it wasn't the 2nd best car that season.

You DON'T rank Fangio very high amongst the greatest GP drivers of all time? Is that a typo?

 

Which car do you rank as 2nd in 2013?

Not a typo. I will not rank Fangio super high because someone else said so. I use my own logic and gather my own information to form an opinion.

 

I'd say Mercedes and Ferrari were about on par for second-best honors in 2013 (with Lotus-Renault really not far very far behind those two), but obviously Red Bull was in a whole other league, earning in excess of 50% more WCC points than Mercedes).

 

I assume by 2010 you mean 2013.

I put Mercedes as clear #2 in 2013. The car was nearly as fast as the Red Bull over the whole year, including 7 straight poles in dry conditions. But also, both Lewis and Rosberg were equally successful in the car. So it wasn't just the drives that only Lewis could do, the car was good enough for both to get poles, wins, and podiums. The Ferrari on the other hand was only good in the hands of Alonso. I think most would agree that between 2010 and 2013, Alonso was the best driver on the grid.

In any case, neither Mercedes or Ferrari had any chance against Red Bull that season, at least after that BS mid season tire change by Pirelli that allowed Red Bull to win 9 races in a row to finish the season.

 

I'll add that Lewis was able to beat Rosberg his first year, despite Rosberg having a 3 year head start with the car

 

Who didn't expect Hamilton to beat Rosberg? Rosberg earned a lot of respect in my eyes, a much better driver than I gave him credit for it. Especially his outright speed. But never did I, and still don't put him among the very best in F1.

It may be worth noting that Rosberg had 3 mechanical failures in 2013, and even if he had 1 DNF like Hamilton did, he likely could have scored 20 pts in 2 races which would have put him ahead of Hamilton on points. Discounting their DNF's, Hamilton's average finish position was 5.17 to Rosberg's 5.19. So even if Rosberg had 191 pts to Ham's 189, I think Lewis still had the better season.

 

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Not so fast.
(not bustin' your chops, just it was "my" only team so I'll never fergit. )

Lotus did so from sheet in '77 to Mario and Ronnie dominating the season in '78, occasionally Q'ing 2 secs. quicker over the year before at the same tracks (Colin got a handle on the ground effects from the type 78 to the type 79). Ronnie may have lost the championship to Mario because of his demise at Monza, scoring nothing (ala Rindt in '70) those last three races.

 

Between seasons I've seen huge improvements, you provide a good example. Never have I seen such a boost in performance between race weekends though.

 

If it seems like Schumacher had a rougher path to his first four titles than Vettel and particularly, Hamilton, that's because the stats are pretty much there that the Mercedes advantage was on another level of brutality, and it's perfectly fair to point that out in these discussions.

The Schumacher dominance between 2000-2004? In 67 races Ferrari did not win the pole 28 times, and there 8 different winners not in Ferrari cars.

How about the Red Bull dominance between 2010-2013? In 77 races they missed out on the pole 23 times, and there 5 different winners not in RBR cars.

The Mercedes dominance between 2014-2017? Incredible. In 79 races Mercedes only missed out on the pole 8 times, and there were 3 different winners not in Mercedes cars.

Sorry, it's just a fact the Mercedes advantage has been brutal. More brutal than anything before it, and while Hamilton is a good driver, the advantage he's had has flattered him big time, much like Vettel in the RB years. That Mercedes is on rails to the point that a clown like Bottas can win in it, Russell can spank the field in it with zero seat time on his first attempt, and Rosberg was able to win a title with it.

 

Err, not quite. Peterson couldn't win the title in 1978, by contract.
Ronnie had left Lotus 2 years before, and Colin Chapman took him back after one year at Tyrrell, on the condition that Mario Andretti was the designated leader that year. Peterson had accepted that.
He was free to push in qualifications, but wasn't allowed to challenge if Mario was ahead during a race.
That was reflected by the 4 "one-two" wins for Mario with Ronnie close behind: Belgium, Spain, France and Holland.
Peterson 2 wins that year were due to Mario crashing or not finishing.
So, regardless of the Monza accident, Chapman had decided that Mario would be champion that year.

 

I see. william, you edumacate me all the time. You teach me so much about auto racing.
If Ronnie had lived, and continued in the last three races, Colin would have pulled him off the track when Mario DNF'd to be sure that he didn't take the championship from Mario.
Whatever was I thinking? Now I know.

How ignorant I've been all these years. Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I see. william, you edumacate me all the time. You teach me so much about auto racing.
If Ronnie had lived, and continued in the last three races, Colin would have pulled him off the track when Mario /penaltied/DNF'd to be sure that he didn't take the championship from Mario. I see. Whatever was I thinking? Now I know.

How ignorant I've been all these years. Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

(Pssssttt. Ssssshhhhhhh. It's a secret. They started the '78 season with the T-78....then the '79)

edit: btw, 'got to see Ronnie at Daytona in '75 and '77.

 

I'm interested in why Fangio is not on the all time great driver list? I completely disagree,

 

I thought you knew all this, since it's common knowledge.
Ronnie had rather abruptly dropped Lotus after 1GP in 76, being unhappy with his car.
Count Zanon (him of Coffee Lavazza) bought him a seat as a pay-driver at March to stay in F1..
The next year Peterson drove for Tyrrell the P34, 6-wheel car without success.
Peterson looked for a drive for 1978, and Chapman agreed to take him back under certain conditions.
In between Chapman had recruited Mario Andretti who spent the best part of a year sorting out the car to make it competitive for the next season.
Peterson had been unable to provide reliable feedback to guide the engineers to develop cars, and Andretti was better at that.
The contrat offered to Ronnie Peterson for 78, stipulated that Andretti was the lead driver; this was reflected by their respective results up to Monza.

BTW, Mario Andretti was declared WDC following the Italian GP.

 

Because he dominated during the birth of the sport, when it was still primarily a hobby for a bunch of rich guys. The dependency between the drivers and cars was the largest in history. Plus there is hardly any footage of the racing in his era. I have never watched a full season flag to flag from the 50s, so I can't form my own opinion about things he did that nobody else could do. I certainly won't rank him highly because some other people that have never seen him race either said he was great.

There is no denying his accomplishments and he it seems clear he was the best driver of his era. But it's kind of like how a 7ft 1 inch Wilt Chamberlain dominated against a bunch of barely over 6 ft guys. His numbers are unbelievable, and he was the best player in his era, but when talking about best players of all time, I can't overlook that his era was still a young league filled with players that were not very good and he had an advantage over his competition that future players never enjoyed.