355 - Clutch Q & A's? | FerrariChat

355 Clutch Q & A's?

Discussion in '348/355' started by Carmellini, Mar 5, 2022.

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  1. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Clutch is slipping in my 1997 46k manual and will need to address soon. Not sure if my clutch is worn and glazed, or if there is fluid contamination?

    -is there a difference in feel between a worn out vs oil soaked disk?

    -understand that clutch interval changes will vary with driving habits, but in GENERAL,
    what mileage are others in need of a swap?

    01/21: I replaced slave with Hill Engineering upgrade and installed viton triple seals.

    Once I get in there the mystery will be solved, but my intuition/suspicion is that my clutch is
    not worn out, but disk is contaminated. Could the rupture of the slave have contaminated
    the disk? Or could I have mucked up the install of the triple seals?

    I bought a used clutch from a car (supposedly) with 10k on the clock. Lots of meat on the disk,
    looks great, and measures at 8.0mm. However, the picture below shows that plate is dished and
    feeler gauge measures about 0.6mm in the gap. I think that is too much?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    You can see a good deal of daylight under that straight edge.

    Searching older threads that seem to suggest dishing of flywheel and even brand new flywheels is not
    unusual; is that true? Same for pressure plates?
     
  2. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,728
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    I have a new flywheel in the box and its perfectly flat. The one in my car I removed has 1/2 that much slope. 348 but same system.
     
    308 GTB likes this.
  3. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Thanks, that's good to know. Assuming the pressure plate should be flat as well?
     
  4. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,728
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Yes until it wears. Flat gets the optimal bite on the clutch plates. The outside edge flexes more than the inside so the closer to the center the more pressure, hence the slope in the wear, or that's how I understand it. What you have there is not that bad, Id say defiantly usable, I don't like machining the surfaces all the gaps and tolerances and spacings get thrown off plus with less material they get hot and warp/wear faster.
     
  5. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2011
    3,217
    Serbia - Niš
    Full Name:
    Miroljub Stojanovic
    The picture below shows dish/dome measurements of my twin clutch (348). It was when it had done ~12k miles and I could still see the the factory machining marks on the surfaces so the dish/domes were not due to wear but, it seems, that is how they were manufactured. This could be to enable smoother transition (more gradual increase of "bite") during engagement and, perhaps, to avoid clutch shudder. I had to do the work on the clutch so early because I had clutch slipping due to gearbox oil leak into it (the triple seals). The clutch discs had only slight wear but I had to replace them as they were well soaked in oil.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  6. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Is there a tool to lock the flywheel when removing and installing the large ring nut?
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,547
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    No. Use a big ass impact wrench.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,087
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    That concave surface is normal after use and is the fallacy of not resurfacing a flywheel when installing a new clutch. As the flywheel distorts the clutch disc wears to the shape. Installing a new clutch that is flat will nor work properly because is has so little contact area. On a manual trans sometimes you can get away with it, your brain adapts instantly to how it engages. An F1 cannot adapt and a huge number of F1 equipped cars are just not working well because of it.
     
  9. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    I have one, but won't the assembly just spin? And on install, how would you be able to apply proper torque? What is the torque for that nut?
     
  10. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,547
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Mark the point on the nut and a spot on the axle where it fits. Put the whole assembly flywheel down on top of a small 4x4 piece of wood, blast away on the impact wrench.

    On the way back, use the impact wrench to spin it to where the old mark is and you are back where you came from. Perfect? no. Best compromise, yes.

    That is the best way to do that short of a factory way to hold the flywheel in place.
     
  11. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Brian, if I understand correctly:

    a) This "new" (used 10k) pressure plate will not work properly "if" my flywheel is dead on flat, or if I resurface to flat?
    b) This "new" (used 10k) pressure plate will not work properly if my flywheel is distorted since the distortion will not match the new plate?
    c) This "new" (used 10k pressure plate WILL work, if I install with the flywheel that this clutch was used on?

    So, for best results, I should get a new FLAT pressure plate, and either make my flywheel flat, or buy a new FLAT flywheel. FLAT on FLAT is best?
     
  12. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Daddy like: great tip, thanks!
     
  13. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Back to my original post:

    My clutch is slipping; not horrible, but needs to be replaced. Once removed, all mysteries will be solved, but something is leaking and there are 2 items
    I touched and one or both is at issue?

    As mentioned, January 2021, I replace ruptured slave with the Hill upgrade. Also replaced the triple seals with the Viton style. I MUST have mucked one of these up and wonder which is most likely?

    I don't have any leak that results in spotting on the floor, but the inspection cover is moist. Smelling the cover like an aardvark for much too long, and I can't tell
    if its gear oil or brake fluid. I thought I was thorough and diligent with both items, but something is amiss? (Looking to prepare for clutch project).
     
  14. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
    215
    Not condoning this method, but they do taste different…
     
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  15. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    LOL...not that bad of an idea, but the fluid is mixed with clutch dust, like a wet paste.....not sure I want to taste that!
     
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  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,547
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    While they may taste different, if you have never tasted any fluid before, how would tasting it now give you any clue? What is your frame of reference? And Carmellini is right, he really should not taste that paste mixed in with clutch dust.
     
  17. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    Lets say it is brake fluid. While the car is stationary, could I pump the clutch pedal a number of times and force the issue?
     
  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,547
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    If it were I, I would just open the box and solve the mystery. Really, all this guessing ... is for what?
     
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  19. Carmellini

    Carmellini Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2019
    964
    you're right....lol
     
  20. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
    215
    Not that I have set out to try them all, but getting flicked with brake fluid from the springy steel lines when separated from the calliper seems to be a unique design feature of the braking system when removing callipers in a tight spot, or oily hands touching lips and then licking them. Another good one is an oil drain plug buried in the engine bay that is awkward to remove and then sprays oil in random directions with bonus points for it being hot as well. The good old days where people used their mouth to start the siphon for fuel, always funny to see someone not pull the hose out of their mouth fast enough, diesel is the worst.:D

    Either I am sloppy or unlucky, but have inadvertently tasted a few organic fluids, still doesn’t stop me doing mechanical stuff, try harder now to avoid it, but there is something about being awkwardly under a car, sweating away and stuff falling on your face that seems to add to the satisfaction of fixing something, or at least not getting beaten by it. Disclosure, Cars are a hobby not a profession for me.:)
     
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,547
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    The only fluid I have ever tasted is coolant when they spray all over my face. Knowing that it is poisonous, I spit it out, rinse my mouth, and never even try to remember the taste. I certainly do not taste oil, brake fluid, gear box fluid or any other car fluid. If I really need to know where the leak is and I am up a creek, I use UV dye.
     

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