365GT4 2+2 17295 at Bonhams

http://themarket.bonhams.com/en/listings/ferrari/365-GT4-2+2/81b41fa8-9c75-4a64-ab4f-3b2f75d2226f

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Good day All,

Just adding doc... Looks like another member's car (rovexienus - Jean-Michel)

Cheers,

Sam

1973 Ferrari 365 Gt4 2+2
Color: Oro Chiaro Exterior with Black Interior
Mileage: 41270KM
Location: Grenoble, France
Chassis: 17295
Auction: Current

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Thanks for your posts Sam, actually he no longer owns it, the current owner is my friend Olivier B. and I am selling it for him.

 

Good day Marc,

You are most welcome and thanks for the updated info! Best of luck with the sale and if you can add more info or perhaps some engine pics, etc that would be great. I cannot speak for everyone, but I really enjoy looking at our cars and especially the mechanical bits where these details really helps us with reference info on what components should look like and/or their finishes/ and/or how some items changed during the production run.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

Sam

 

Thank you Sam,

I am first and foremost a writer and only do brokerage because writing pays very little. Funnily enough I had seen this car at the Chantilly Concours near Paris in 2014 and in my Ferrari Market Letter article I wrote that I lusted after it considering grand theft auto It is such a gorgeous colour and very rare on 365's and 400's.

The shade it was repainted in is actually a bit lighter than Oro Kelso, more like Oro Chiaro, and funnily enough the exact same thing was done to my ex Khamsin which was also born Oro Kelso and later repainted oro chiaro because Kelso is a bit mustardy when the car is not under strong sunlight.

As we mention in the text the engine will eventually need a service, we recently did a compression test -for which much appreciated advice was given in the Fchat tech section- and ten cylinders were good but two were weak. It runs very well and can be driven for a long time like this but will eventually needs at least the heads done, this is the situation.

Regarding photos the chap we hired to take them was used to take pretty photos but nor inspection photos and neither the owner nor I were there to pinpoint what to photograph so the photo selection is what it is.

Nevertheless we know from Bonhams the Market virtual auctions that there is strong interest in it because as you well know these are not only the most affordable carburetted V12's but they sound fabulous thanks to the sidedraft Webers and are not about to go down in value, to the contrary so I am confident its price at auction deadline Thursday will be strong.

I actually almost bought a very decent red tan carb 400 Auto in Miami for $12000 back in 2003, I wish I had, those prices are long gone and not coming back!

All the best and enjoy yours

 

Marc,

I agree with your comments about the photography. There are so many reflections and shadows that it’s difficult to understand what the paint looks like. I was trying to figure out if there’s a dealer decal on the rear window but I can’t tell.

 

Hello Jack,

Here are some snapshots that the owner took a few months ago, they are free of shadows. While many cars have stickers such as those sold by Pozzi not all do and in this case there isn't one from Tayre the initial dealer in Spain. The last photo with other vehicles around it is fron 1989 and shows the original darker Oro Kelso livery. It spent some time in Silver in between but thankfully was brought back to Oro.


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Good day Marc,

Thanks for the additional info and additional pics! I commend you and the owner for being upfront on the car's current condition and it speaks well for both of you.

Indeed the color looks great and is not something I would have been immediately drawn to or thought of, but I am. I am amazed at the diversity of colors offered and how some really accent or enhance the model's curves. In the late 80's/90's these colors were not mainstream, whereas, now they are fully embraced as they allow the car to stand out instead of simply being lost in a sea of the red, etc.

As for webers... how can one go wrong... well... if they are properly tuned by those who know how to make them sing. As for my car... I have yet to drive it despite having it for almost 8 years now! Time certainly flies. I could have done some basic maintenance, etc and got the car on the road, but wanted a really nice driver and so I started my light or sympathetic resto efforts. As with most projects and life in general, other items become priorities and so things take longer than one plans or hopes. However, I am hoping to have my car driving this season... it will not be fully done (engine bay area still needs attention), but I cannot wait any longer... as I am aging faster than I would like ...

Cheers,

Sam

 

Exactly, project "creek" is a real thing, I was also in the same predicament. What I have done is set hard timelines, if I don't get it done, I outsource more; so basically it become like a "delay penalty".
]

 

That is precisey why I wrote that this is a car that can be brought up to ideal driver standards little by little WHILE keeping it active, running.

It is about the sensual pleasure of driving, NOT about tinkering forever.

I humbly suggest you quickly take a shortcut to getting it ready for the first test drive Sam, it is all about logistics, deadlines, precise organisation.

This life is not a rehearsal.

 

To be frank, I am annoyed by the fact that none of the photos of the Bonhams listing do justice to the paint-job. I've seen this car in person quite a few time, and the colour is my favourite.

As for the rest Jean-Michel does not spend his week-end detailing his cars for sure, but his engines have been on numerous occasion on the same workbench as mine. In other words no hidden horror story, the expensive work is done when need be.

 

Hello Raemin,

As I mentioned in a previous post the owner now is Olivier B.

Not a Jean Michel, that was before.

Thank you for your kind comments yes the color is very attractive and best shown in the photos I posted yesterday.

And yes I am far more in agreement with those who drive than the wax and polish concours brigade

 

Good day,

Understood. I think you meant to say feature "creep" instead of "creek"... although working on the car did give me a number of creeks . My car was left untouched for a number of years (around 15+ or so) and I had to go through a number of things to ensure all was working properly. There is no question I could have done things faster or perhaps not to the degree I did, but I prefer to do things once and this way I would not have to work on things as they arise. I am glad I did, as number of things looked OK, but had a lot of hidden issues. Almost all of the brake calipers were seized, the shocks "looked" OK but were knackered internally, etc. The things that took a lot of time was refinishing all of the various fasteners, etc. To be fair, the actual refinishing portion was not time consuming, but rather researching what the original finishes were and documenting all of this, and what shops could do the various refinishing efforts locally. Lastly, I could not work on the car regularly or continuously and so I only spent a handful of hours each year. This year will be different, as I already blocked out time for my car and if all goes well it should be on the road later this year. There are still a few areas needing attention, but I can worry about these over the next Winter.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Good day Marc,

I agree, but it depends on the car's current state and the owner. My car sat for many years and was so a lot of things need and/or needed attention. Having a car like 17295 is great, as it is fully operational and was used regularly by its recent owners. This goes a long way with actually using a car as is. Although my car has only 15000 Kms, it needed a lot of work because of it not being regularly driven or serviced. If anything my car demonstrates how things can become issues if a car is not used often enough. That is not to say my car's past owners did this on purpose, but life can get pretty busy, etc and so cars can be forgotten and/or time can fly by faster than one would hope or think.

With regards to a car's owner... some enjoy the destination, but others enjoy the journey. I am more of the latter, as I really enjoy working on all things and digging deep into tiddly things like fasteners or part finishes. Consequently, I have no issue for taking my time with things... even so 8 years is a long time and in retrospect I should have spent more time than I did. However, the season will soon be starting (we are still in Winter here in Western Canada) and I have already been planning on allocating a number of weeks on the car and I am confident that it will be driving this season. I have all of the bits ready to go and so now it is simply reassembly and mounting the various items... so I am close.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Haha..yes, definitely creep! And we don't want creaks either!

Sent from my MAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

 

Hello Sam,

Am typing on phone so short answer.

Ah if your car sat inactive for years then yes different ballgame from the one I represent which has been kept active, running, alive.

I just noticed that the entire 365 to 412 section is massively oriented to working on the cars as opposed to driving, I had not really visited this section before but it makes sense, these are not the models that attract those who want to do trackdays etc.
That being said it is important, as I learned in my racing years in the UK -over 30 years ago!- to set a hard deadline for itemized restoration progress; fight hurdles and delays like the plague, solve them as best you can stubbornly.
THAT is where time is gained, with of course sound streamlined logistics.

I am always amazed, over and over, time and time again how many classic car owners are very well organized for all other aspects of their lives but have a blind spot of chaos for their classic.

You seem very fastidious and thorough but hopefully you are near the end.

I look forward to reports of your first drive

 

Good day Marc,

For the most part the 365/400/412 models were unloved for a long time and so a number of them had many years of neglect and deferred maintenance. The result was cars were selling for almost for the car's parts. Complicating things was the deferred maintenance costs were pricey and/or much larger than say 308's and so the model suffered because of these realities and perceptions. It is hard to imagine that some of the 365/400's with needs could have been bought for under $20K. Some were overpriced given their needs , but a number needed only a bit of work. Because of all of this, many die hard fans would do as much work as they can and were rewarded for their efforts in terms of the mode's enjoyment.

As for me... well, I can and usually am very detailed oriented. It truly depends upon what I am starting with. My Boxer was/is a driver and so it simply needed some TLC and some deferred maintenance to get it back on the road after sitting for about 7 years. The car has bumps and bruises and is not perfect, but is nice enough to enjoy which I do as much as I can. At some point I will really sort the car out from top to bottom, but not just yet. Given its current condition I can enjoy the car without fear of getting a rock chip or a dent, as the paint is old and already has blemishes. My for 365... it simply needed too much to get it on the road promptly. Some items could have been sorted quickly, but other items needed to be fully redone. My car spent the majority of its life in Desert climates and so the interior was simply too far gone. The leather was as hard as wood and the stitching would break when you sat on the seats. So... a full interior was needed. Once you have a really nice area, it is tough to have other areas that are not in a similar condition and so the project increases.

As for time... since I am self employed I am at the mercy of my customers and so I do not have structured hours. The result was only a handful of hours for the car per year... and so time ticks away. Complicating things is where I live where there is little infrastructure to support specialty car restorations. It took me almost 2 years to find a shop that would even consider painting my car... That is not to say that it is that difficult to do, but that most shops are completely uninterested in working on cars that are not new. These shops make far more $ on new car repairs. The shops that would considering painting my car wanted absolutely ridiculous $ for these efforts, my first born, and a kidney... then a kiss of the ring. However, being stubborn and patient I was able to find a shop and finally had my car painted. So, my location also played a role in my extended resto time. Lastly, I must also blame our own 'Newman" ... If he would not do such excellent work I would not have been inclined to elevate my work to something closer to his skill. With that said... I am pushing hard to have the car on the road for this season. It is going to annoy me that the engine bay is not where I want it to be, but I can temper this will thew fact that I can actually enjoy the car for the few months we are without snow.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Good day All,

Just an update that the auction closed with a bid of €57,500 (approx $62.5K USD) with the reserve not met. Hopefully Marc will chime in to see if the high bidder and/or others were able to negotiate a sale.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Hello Sam,

No the high bidder did not wan to go ahead with a deal feeling the car needed too much work -and since reserve had not been met he had no obigation-, Olivier the owner and I wanted to be very candid about the condition of the car. He sold it 6 hours later to a French client he knew. That man will take good car of it.

I hope you can drive your own very soon

 

Good day Marc,

Thanks for the update! Too bad about the high bidder, bit it is their loss. Finding a comparable car with an upfront seller will be challenging for them. However, that is great that the car found a good home! All the best to the new owner and also for you and the previous owner!

As for my car...I have not started just yet. However, I have started prepping and cleaning my shop for some no nonsense work efforts once I start. Once all this is done I can get my car on the hoist and go non stop until the car is sitting on its 4 "feet". I will post progress pictures so all can keep up to date... and have a chuckle or two.

Have a great weekend!

Cheers,

Sam

 

Best of luck to you Sam, I hope you enjoy the car a lot this summer!

 

Im going to disagree about the positive spin on this sale and conclude that the new owner probably just really wanted the car no matter what and the high bidder was wise to walk away. The reality to me being in the business is its a V12 ferrari with a baffed engine making it an 11 cylinder ferrari and its painted the wrong colour. Harsh and killing the feel good vibe in this thread but tell me Im wrong. Regardless of how nice it looks, a lighter version of its original colour is still the wrong colour and turning an 11 cylinder ferrari into a 12 again will cost a lot of money.

I always wondered about the cars value when painted off colours so I asked a broker friend once and he said two things. Always paint the car the correct colour, always. And if it's wrong then the standard deduction is the cost of a proper repaint. Taking those two things into consideration anything but an emotional purchase (or obtuse) would put that car way below the bid price to make financial sense.

 

Having seen the car in person I beg to differ:

1) Rovexienus told me he got the car repainted to its original colour. I just don't see why he would have not done so as he had plenty of 400/412/365 and decided this particular one had to be stock (including the side mirror, which I did not like when we talked about it...).

2) Back then (last year) the car was definitively running on 12 cylinders. Maybe the compression test is not as good as a newly rebuilt engine, but unless something horrendous occurred since he sold the car I would expect the engine to be sound.

I think the current buyer did not make a bad deal. I don't think the seller lost any money though...