Is Lewis Hamilton the greatest of all time, why or why not?

I don't know what your arguing really... If his abilities were being challenged in "the very first weekend in 2014, after quali" it was for the reasons I mentioned - despite his WDCs the only real references were Bourdais/Webber. In 2014 Vettel was a young ~26 - prime age for racing driver - and for the first time paired with a driver not his considerable senior.

Anyone writing Vettel off would have been premature (AUS 2014 was an odd wet/dry qualifying session) even if they were ultimately proven somewhat correct by season's end.

You can bet when Eddie Irvine out-qualified Michael on their Ferrari debut, their were some people rubbing their hands together in delight...didn't last for long though.

What this all has to do with Lewis, I don't really know.

 

What it has to do with Lewis...well this topic specifically is about Lewis. I brought up Vettel because you're quick to point out "haters" cackling at Lewis despite only 2 races done. I simply point out the fact that Vettel got the same treatment Lewis is getting, but even earlier.

 

...and I've correctly pointed out the comparison was not really a good one at all

 

I think I've made it clear in my previous posts that I am no fan of Lewis, but I hope I've never done or said anything that would be hateful toward him. My problem with Hamilton may be more centered on his uneducated fans, whom I perceive to be recent arrivals to the world of F1. It rankles when I hear them referring to him as the "greatest of all time" without any experience or context. It rankles even more to see Lewis take advantage of that hype to press his goofball politics and bizarre personal grooming and fashion tastes on the rest of us. I strongly believe that we have yet to see where Sir Hamilton stands in the history of F1; let us see how he does in a car that is not clearly superior to everything on the grid. Let us see how he does with some REAL adversity, not a bunch of malarky about getting a five place grid penalty in a car that can pass those same five cars in the first two laps of the race.

Sorry its not what his fans want to hear, but Hamilton's dominance in the hybrid era raises significant questions about his real legacy. If he's really that good, let's see whether his skill can translate across several rule formulas, not just the anomalous single formula dominance of Mercedes. This isn't hating, its reality, and I am just one of the millions of F1 adherents who harbor similar doubts about Hamilton. The season in front of us will be very telling.

 

I take it you are not aware that Hamilton won the 2008 WDC driving a McLaren under the V8, 2.4 L naturally aspirated formula.

Thus, he has won championships under 2 different formulae, and "not just the anomalous formula dominance of Mercedes" (I quote).

A 72 y.o uneducated F1 fan.

 

Vettel is not quick and never has been. Those championships are solely down to newey. When ricciardo tested the 2013 red bull he was 3 tenths quicker than Vettel in comparable conditions, that’s why they hired him on for 2014. The idea that Vettel was slow in 2014 because he didn’t adapt to the car is completely incorrect.

Vettel has always been average. But having by far the best car on the grid and an aging out of form team mate made him seem good. Then he went to Ferrari and again was blessed with a top car and he didn’t shine at all. The gap he held over Kimi was half that of what alonso held - again suggesting he’s leaving 3 tenths of performance on the table per lap. We have even more evidence for that theory now - he’s only 34 so should not be experiencing age related decline yet and he’s barely got the measure of stroll who is a pay driver.

Meanwhile we have Lewis who beat Fernando Alonso as a rookie and has faced 8 seasons against a wdc winning team mate. With both rosberg and button being very good drivers.

All title winning drivers have a top car. Drivers like Lewis, alonso, verstappen, Schumacher etc extract the maximum from those cars and that can easily be determined with a bit of critical analysis. Whereas Vettel has his titles precisely because if the dominant car not because of his talent.

As much as people here want to see Lewis fail you’d have to be a moron to think his situation draws any similarities to Vettel.

Hamilton is the complete package and GOAT of this sport and he’s been tested more than any other driver in history. No other driver in f1 history has had team mates of the caliber of Lewis for as long as Lewis has, and without number 1 status as well.

 

Point well taken, and I certainly give all due respect to my elders! . I was a actually a fan of Hamilton and McLaren when he won the 2008 WDC, and it was due reward for a talented driver. However, take away the Hybrid era and the undisputed Mercedes dominance, and Hamilton's single WDC under the '08 formula is worthy of only an honorable mention.

Again, this season will be THE acid test of Sir Hamilton and his legacy. Then, all of us keyboard warriors will have more to argue about.

 

So what are your expectations to determine his talent for this coming season?

 

It was a title, not just a mention !

 

That, Sir, is an intelligent question. A few things come to mind: How does he do developing an inferior car as a driver and as a member of the team? (Think Alonso). How well can he adapt to the car and drive it progressively faster over a given race weekend? How successful is he at bringing a demonstrably slower car to the front of the field (think Senna and Schumacher, among others). How effectively can he pass his competitors when his car does not have an outrageous power advantage over his nearest rival (Think Mansell). How well does he employ race craft to beat cars that have similar lap times? How much time does his spend crying over this and that over the radio? How well does he do against Russell, who seems to be a talented driver and not (yet) willing to play the role of Robin to Hamilton's Batman? (Think Rossberg, NOT Bottas). How devoted is he to focusing on his racing and not attempting to give the World advice on social justice with no education other than that which obtains while sitting on is private jet to attend fashion galas in NYC? (I spent 12 years getting my degrees, and I still don't pretend to give advice to anyone other than those paying me for it

 

So to put it simply, Lewis has a tall order then.

 

Not really, his ability is beyond doubt after all these years.
He could be simply let down by a car he didn't design; **** happens!
It could be tragic in a young career, but not in his position.
Retirement is luring for him.

 

William, are you saying that Sir Hamilton should retire now that he doesn't have a clearly dominant car? In my opinion, that would seal his reputation, but certainly not in manner that would be positive for his legacy...

 

Words like "reputation", "legacy" are empty. I don't know if Hamilton really cares about that!
Do you really believe Hamilton is bothered by your opinion?
It wouldn't be the first time a top driver (or rider) with a strong pedigree to his name finds himself without good machinery on offer and decides to call it a day. There is absolutely no shame for someone who has won everything and with nothing to prove to decide not to play mid-fielder.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree on this...I can think of little worse that Hamilton could do to his reputation than quit when he doesn't have the shiniest toy anymore. The context of his "retirement" would be especially damning; Mercedes' dominance in the Hybrid era forever assigns an asterisk to Hamilton's statistical success. Quitting now simply confirms it.

 

It seems Russell is making the most of what seems to be a crappy car???

My question is, why can't a 7x WDC title holder do the same??

 

I don't have an answer to that.
Maybe he cannot adapt to that car? He mentioned choosing a different set up than Russell.
Did he make the mistake of signing another contract? His motivation is fading perhaps?
We should know before long.

 

Since you said in your introduction that you didn't like the guy anyway, that would go right in your direction, no?

 

A championship capable McLaren no less.

 

McHam rode the Mercedes wave very nicely, when its tide was high.

Let's see what he can do now the tide is not quite as high.

 

Is that why McHam is still chasing that elusive WDC #8 ?

 

It's mostly because he failed to navigate the pit entry in China, defeat his #2 driver (the only other driver in the field who was in a car capable of competing), or beat Max in the slower Red Bull last year. Mercedes laid eight WDC at his feet and McLaren two. If he were a better driver, we'd be talking about his chase for that elusive #11.

 

Way too early to answer this.
Maybe a week end off ?
just wait and see..

 

You seem confused in your critic.

Or maybe you think Lewis and Hamilton are not one and the same?