Is Lewis Hamilton the greatest of all time, why or why not?

LOL! What nonsense.

Schumacher left Ferrari because Kimi was signed behind his back. Like many other number 1 drivers, Schumacher had a clause to be consulted on important changes to the team like the technical department and drive lineups. Luca didn't just piss of Michael with that move. The whole dream team of Brawn, Todt, and Byrne lost confidence in Ferrari's board, and went their separate ways at the end of their contracts.

Michael left Ferrari for the same reasons Mansell and Newey left Williams.

 

Yeah, um, this isn't the ringing endorsement of Hamilton you think it is, bro. Button isn't an elite driver. Never was. Had it not been for lucking into Brawn's miracle team, he would've been finished in F1 as a one and done winner.

Don't get me wrong. Button is a very nice guy and I was thrilled to see him start winning. His career bloomed late like others, but he was never championship level. He got very lucky in 09', and after winning 6 of the first 7 races, he only got on the podium two more times in the second half of the season, which speaks to his capabilities when Red Bull and Vettel gained steam. Without the mechanical issues in Hungary and Valencia, Vettel would've beaten Button to that championship at 22.

Button always deserved to win races, but he was never an elite driver that could win championships without a 1+ second advantage over the likes of Alonso, Kimi, and Vettel. The fact that Hamilton has stats that are only just better than Button's when they were teammates, speaks volumes about the former.

 

Alain Prost had Lauda, Senna, Hill, and Mansell as teammates, and outscored all of them.

Hamilton tied with Alonso despite getting favorable treatment at McLaren, barely beat Rosberg in 14', was beaten by Rosberg in 16', and was outscored by Button at his McLaren years, despite the favorable treatment from Ron.

As for last year, Max was hands down the better driver. Without Hamilton running into him at Silverstone, Bottas running into him at Hungary, the title fight would've been over a 1 or 2 races before. Don't get forget Max's tire failure at Baku, whereas in the same race, Hamilton just choked on the restart out of the win.

More races than not the Mercedes was quicker than the Red Bull, especially the second half. The last four races Hamilton had a 30HP advantage over Max, and could just drive by him on the straights without having to fight him at all.

The stewards were favorable to Max? Please. Hamilton escaped several clear as day penalties for leaving the track and running into people.

 

Schumacher was also pretty exhausted in addition to the LdM ego-driven politics. A combination of both factors helped Michael to choose retirement.

 

Yep. I called out Vettel (and I like Vettel as a person) as not being as elite as his titles suggested. When 14' came along and he struggled without the car advantage, it proved that he had in fact not developed his skills during the 10-13' RBR dominance.

Both Hamilton and Vettel were young rookie sensations, who then got spoiled with car advantages that coincided with their best rivals being stuck in turd wagons, and so they didn't have to develop their skills, and mature into the kind of wise veterans Schumacher, Prost, Mikka, and Alonso did. They had it way easier than anybody before, and it spoiled them rotten to the point that they weren't able to handle not having a 6 tenths+ advantage again when it went away. For Vettel it happened at the beginning of his career, whereas it came a little later for Hamilton.

When you point out that Vettel got sloppy having been spoiled at Red Bull and his stats are inflated, some of his fans might get mad, but everyone kind of agrees to it. You say the same thing about Hamilton and point out identical flaws in their championships, the Hamilton brigade loses its mind.

 

Fully agree,
Today people don't imagine the intensity of work that was required when testing was unlimited..
Every week in Fiorano or Mugello until sunset..
Big difference now with simulator era..

 

Luca handled it so terribly and it brought down the dream team of Ferrari.

Remember the "Rossi to Ferrari" garbage? It was one of the things that made Brawn and Todt wonder if Luca was on drugs. That crap created a climate at the team, where the confidence in the Ferrari board to act professionally and put the racing first came to an end.

Brawn would've likely stayed at Ferrari, but he was furious with how Luca treated Schumacher in forcing him into the Monza spectacle.

 

IMO Vettel was very, very good, but only in a car that suited his skill set. Others with the same talent limitation Vettel appears to have (i.e. can only drive certain cars) may have struggled in that Red Bull. Those Red Bulls where fast but only driven in a certain way. If a driver doesn't trust it or needs the perfect set up to feel comfortable in it (not always possible to get the perfect set up from it), you end up with a Mark Webber situation. In his early career Vettel was amazing. Made plenty of mistakes, but rarely did he not get the maximum from the car. But, crucially, he understood the way the car had to be driven. Vettel gets critisized a lot for his Ferrari career and lack of championships. That is assuming that the Ferrari was capable of winning titles. The car was fast but the Mercedes more often than not faster. So Ferrari needed the perfect season in order to win...and Mercedes to make mistakes. In the end both ended up making mistakes, just Mercedes earlier in the season making the Ferrari look faster than it was. Then the traditional Mercedes 2nd half of the season kicked in and they where unbeatable again. Right now I question his motivation. He knows points are valuable to the team more than anything, So risk taking is out of the question now as well...and the motivation also falls away when you're racing for 9th. Who really cares anymore about finishing at best 8th...Vettel's earlier GOAT considerations evaporated when he couldn't adapt as quickly in his prime.

Kimi had the same problem. He was monstrously fast on Michelins. IMO the fastest man in the world at that time. He didn't like the bridgestones much, fell out of love with F1 at the end of his first career. His return with Lotus was amazing. Ferrari it was clear he was playing 2nd fiddle and the team most often forgot he was even in the race. Not only did he get the poor strategies, he was never listened to...But he was always strongest on those michelins. If he had those tyres his entire career it's scary what he could've achieved.

Few drivers out there are capable of driving any car to it's maximum abilities. Michael Schumacher was one of them. As was Alonso. Now IMO Verstappen is the one that can be added to the list. Someone capable of that is the true markings of a consideration of being on the list of GOATs, IMO.

 

The point is schumacher had the option of going up against Kimi if he wanted but he turned it down. Clearly he was still keen on f1 hence his return in 2010.


I don’t get how a logical person can claim button is not a good driver but in the same breath claim that Kimi and Vettel are.

alonso vs Kimi as team mates:

2014

16 - 1 in races
16 - 3 in qualy with a median gap of 0.684%

Alonso vs button as team mates:

2015

5-5 in races

7-7 qualy with a median gap of 0.051% in Alonso’s favour

2016

8-6 in races
15-4 with a median gap of .238% in Alonso’s favour


Kimi couldn’t even beat massa. Button would absolutely wipe the floor with him. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just baseless statements with no evidence base whatsoever.

Prost had 6 seasons with a wdc team mate, Hamilton had 8. If you correct for bad luck and reliability, Prost didn’t actually beat all his team mates. Losing to senna and lauda. If you correct Hamilton for bad luck and reliability, he beats all his team mates. 2014 and 2016 Hamilton had terrible bad luck with reliability. Anyone who watched the races would know that but clearly seems you did not. But sure, Prost had some pretty hard team mates I’ll give you that - but he lacked qualy pace so isn’t a complete driver like Lewis is. Next.

lol alonso received preferential treatment from mclaren mate not the other way around. As per my earlier post, Hamilton was high fuelled for the first 5 races of the season so he wouldn’t challenge alonso in qualy. Once that impediment was removed he smashed him like 14-3, as a ROOKIE. Verstappen was outqualified by sainz as a rookie.

max drove a strong 21 season and Lewis made a couple of mistakes sure but no need to try rewrite history. Who did Lewis run into and avoid a penalty? Max got away with it on many occasions - Spain, Qatar, Italy being just a few. Literally brake checked Lewis and received an inconsequential penalty that didn’t change the result. He got let off so many times.
Abs the red bull was faster at most tracks the entire first half of the season lol. Merc had an advantage in the second half but Lewis also had to take multiple penalties (thereby gifting max wins) and turn his engine up to get that extra pace…so you can’t really call that a car advantage when he had to handicap himself with multiple penalties to get it

as I said above, statistically the best driver in f1, also statistically the driver with the hardest ever team mates in f1. Amazing in the wet with the most wet weather wins up there with schumacher, unparalleled racecraft and one of the fairest and cleanest racers in f1. Undisputed goat. Compare Lewis against any other driver logically and they lose.

 

If I remember correctly what was said in the motoring press, and what the interested said himself, Schumacher didn't leave of his own accord "because he was exhausted". He wanted to stay, but found himself pushed out of the door.
Ferrari didn't want to miss out on Kimi who had looked so promising at McLaren, and snatched him before any other team did.
I wasn't aware that Schumacher had a say in choosing the other driver, in any case, he couldn't oppose Kimi's signing.
Raikkonen was hot potato at the time. Ferrari already had Massa under contract, and Schumacher coming for renewal (if I am correct).
Schumacher told the media he could only stay if Massa was put on the bench, but I don't even know if he had that power at Ferrari.
If he had only wanted to go because he was exhausted, why would he go to the media and appear to fight for his seat?
Going public on this issue didn't make him very popular at Ferrari, and complicated further negotiations.
I think Schumacher would have like to stay, but found that,the atmosphere has changed at Maranello, and the under-current was that they wanted him to go. To a point, he had become the scapegoat for the defeat to Alonso and Renault.

 

Mostly correct but
Just watch the monza 2006 post Gp press conference and you will have his own words about the reasons of his retirement.
His family was another one either and he was completely sincere.

 

So much nonsense, so little time.

Button isn't a great driver. Sorry, just isn't. Was beaten by Ralf Schumacher and Fischella in his first two seasons, before being paid an ungodly amount of money despite showing not much beyond average results, and taking 7 seasons to get his first win. When he had a huge car advantage in 09' and won 6 of the first 7 races, he fell off a cliff and struggled to finish on the podium in the second half.

Sorry, that's not an elite driver and if you can't see that, and you don't think it reflects poorly on Hamilton that he couldn't outscore him, that's a problem I can't help you with.

This garbage that Hamilton beat all of his teammates made me do a double check to see if you're ****ing with us. How can you be serious? He tied with Alonso, got outscored by Button, and had Rosberg take him into two season finales, where he was beaten straight up in one of them. Hamilton got the wonder boy treatment at both Mercedes and McLaren and suggesting he didn't is just revisionist ********.

Prost would've beaten Lauda without the half points in Monaco, took more points than Senna, Mansell, and Hill in the time together. That you don't know this and grasp the significant difference in competition is revealing.

You wanna talk about gifted wins? Dude, that Mercedes in the final 4 races had a rocket engine inside it. Hamilton could just drive by Max and everyone else on the straights without anybody being able to fight back against him.

I must give you credit. You made so many logical errors and inaccuracies, I couldn't handle them all. Well done.

 

Massa was on a 1 year contract. With Kimi in, it meant Massa was out if Schumacher had stayed.

Schumacher and Brawn had clauses that assured they'd be consulted on important team decisions, which included teammates. Not an unusual thing at all. Most teams have something similar in their contracts.

But Luca was impulsive. Ron decided he wanted Alonso, and paid Renault off. Kimi and his manager wanted him to have number 1 status, and knowing Schumacher and Massa's contract was up, decided to put out a feeler to Luca. Luca signed Kimi on to Ferrari in secrecy, behind Schumacher and Brawn's backs, and they were livid to find out through the grapevine that Kimi had been signed without their consulting.

Schumacher was already thinking about retirement, and that just pushed him over the edge. He had told Brawn and Todt he wanted to show he was still at the top of his game after the struggles of 05', win some races and go for the championship one more time in 06', then quietly retire over the winter. He had no interest in a farewell tour at all. But Luca pushed him to go public with his retirement, or else Ferrari would announce it themselves at Monza, which is what ended up happening, and that was why Schumi and Luca were so icey at Monza. He wanted to quietly retire after the season was done, and was being forced to be party to a spectacle.

Michael never fought for his ride in the press. He had made his decision long before the media started hearing the rumors. His press interviews were him trying to keep his coming retirement a secret until seasons end, which Luca refused to allow.

 

I don't know about that press conference, So I cannot comnent. What did he say then?
The British press was full of the way Schumacher was "treated" by Ferrari. Some of it factual, some invented, some speculated.
Anyway what was shocking is that after 5 titles with them, he was put on the back burner and his importance at the Scuderia became nil, to the point that his phone calls weren't answered, it was said.
Apparently the management (Todt or LdM?) avoided him when he visited Maranello, and was evasive when prompted by the press.
Was that true or invented? In any case,Schmacher left.

 

Exactly.

It was race weekend > Monday to Thursday back at Fiorano/mugello to test sunrise to sunset (there is even footage of Schumacher driving well into dusk with the track barely visible anymore!). There was no single driver more dedicated to the team that Michael ever was. I forget the year but there was even a time when Schumacher practised at Monaco, flew back to fiorano to test more, tested all of friday, then back to Monaco Saturday for testing and qualifying...There was dedication, and there was Michael Schumacher.

Michael already endured the 2005 season with a desperately poor car only to come back in 2006 and fight for the title. Who can blame him for retiring?

 

+1
I see this with other sports and business leaders, they can allow their need for personal esteem to eclipse the needs of the business. It's very nuanced and they don't recognise the signs.

We're often contracted just in time to go in and save the carnage. But sometimes it's too late.

LdM messed things up for sure. His personal need to feel esteemed created false beliefs and poor judgement.

 

"The dream team of Ferrari" is a myth, it never existed.
Drivers have never been more than mere commodities at Maranello.
It started under the Commandatore and never stopped, it seems. It must be part of corporate mentality.
The list of drivers who left the Scuderia under a cloud is endless, some slamming the door on their way out, some going quietly ...
There are similarities between Schumacher's departure and Alonso's, I found.

 

+44 That's it in a nutshell.

 

Schumacher era was absolutely unique in Ferrari history.
Something different and the result of a hard work done by an elite group led by Jean Todt.
To me this is clearly a dream team.

 

Hamilton has enjoyed Zero reliability issues since 2016.

 

A unique driver and team working in harmony.
MSC never criticized the car.
Also a unique quality.

 

True, but it couldn't last. No team stays at the top for ever.
Every driver, every engineer has a shelf life.
In general, the atmosphere at Ferrari is very oppressive; drivers and engineers have mentioned it.
Many people have left Maranello in bad terms

 

True
Pressure is immense because Ferrari is a national pride.
But winning a championship with Ferrari is absolutely incomparable for me ( only my opinion).
Atmosphere seems very good at Ferrari now, this is bar far the best achievement from Binotto i would say.
Will it be enough to win again on a regular basis?

 

It must be very fragile if it depends only on one man.
Didn't another Ferrari CEO leave recently?