GM T50 - why SO MUCH BETTER than a Ferrari??

Guys,

First time I've been on F Chat in nearly a year (after being a regular over a decade) and my first post in longer.

Why?

Because, for the most part, Ferrari is a marketing company and is not putting out cars for which I have much interest. I have my Speciale, and some day may add a TDF or an F12, but that's it for me (I've owned 5 previous NA Ferrari's BTW).

Hybrids? Turbo's? Both? Aging aluminum chassis? Cars weighing 3600 pounds and up? Interiors with progressively less hand finishing? Silly prices for decorative carbon/plastic? No thanks for me.

Which gets me to my point:

Just watched the new video of the Gordon Murray T50 on track at Goodwood. For those who have not seen this, and have interest, I highly recommend a viewing.

In a nutshell, the T50 looks and sounds OMG FANTASTIC!!!

The car sounds and goes like an old NA F1 car, and is obviously head and shoulders above what anybody is producing and selling. $4M for the car looks like a BARGAIN!

Seeing this car fly down the track, with glorious sound, reinforces my disinterest in the current Ferrari line up. Why can't Ferrari produce something similar? Small, low weight carbon tub, with a detuned F1 engine, and yes the option of a manual gearbox??

Don't even bring up the new P3 hypercar, too big and dare I say UGLY compared to the classic originals.....

Ferrari could do it successfully, if they wanted. Or perhaps they need someone with more "vision" leading the company.

Alas, I have little confidence they will put out anything remotely as good as the T50.

Shame, in my book, I bet there are many others who feel EXACTLY as I do...

FERRARI, are you paying attention??

OK rant over, flame suit on.

 

Ferrari is a luxury brand now. Not much else. They sold themselves out when they went public. Greed has taken over passion. As soon as I saw a Chrysler nav unit in a California..then in the FF..that was all I needed to see.

 

When you have a couple of years production presold and a long line of clients at every dealer ready to place their order anxious to write you a deposit check what would be the 1st clue you were doing something wrong?

I happen to agree with you but its quite obvious they are not building cars for me and you and doing very well at it.

The newest Ferrari I want was built some time ago.

 

I'm just wondering how long that will last tho. Porsche also has big waiting lists for the gt3, gt4 models. Ferrari seems to be emulating Porsche. Which is fine..I guess for the share holders. But the brand as we remember it and fell in love with is long gone.

 

People have been predicting the end since the 90's. Predicted it would blow up in Ferraris face. Don't bet more than you can lose.

The world changes constantly. I liked it better before too. Its the way it is.

 

I like the T.33 more than the T.50 but your point stands and I applaud Gordan Murray on his approach.

While I don't always agree with Ferrari's direction, whatever they are doing seems to work to keep the company afloat. If that means I can keep buying parts to keep my old 12s running with only mild headache, so be it!

 

Ferrari doesn’t care if you (like myself) don’t want one of their new cars….they are still building less units than the demand. Hybrid, turbo, fit, finish, etc doesn’t matter. They are winning and winning big…..


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Selling to the masses, and it depends on what the masses want...SUV's, sure. Hybrid and electric? Why not?

Notice the peeps in line with the massive wealth are MOSTLY, not all, NOT car enthusiasts in the truest sense...I, for one, can enjoy my Ferrari all by myself driving on a long stretch of road with nobody, day or night, kind of like James Dean and his 550.

 

Oh...I also forgot about Porsche a long time ago...

I sure I hope I don't lose the excitement for Ferrari's...and most new models I have stopped liking since 3-5 years ago

 

Manual gearbox for a Ferrari will never return. Firstly, future models will be battery powered so no manual gearbox for these cars. Secondly, the new buyer market killed the manual gearbox. The California was the last model to offer a manual gearbox option, how many took that option, if memory serves me correct it was 3. The 599 the last V12 to be offered with a manual gearbox with about 30 or so taking the option.

With Ferrari progressing to all battery propulsion it can only survive as a lifestyle brand. What set it apart from other marques and what we all love about Ferrari, the engine and the sound emanating from that glorious engine has already started rapidly disappearing to be gone completely within the next few years. With the release of the 296 it was pretty much universal anticipation as to what will the 296 sound like. Once all electric they will probably just have a setting to pipe through the speakers the engine note you want. This a future for Ferrari that for us true Ferrari enthusiasts is not something to look forward to. We will just have to embrace and covet the older models for as long as we can drive them before Government forces us off the road with higher taxes, higher fuel costs, restrictions when and where we can drive and possibly limiting fuel supply.

 

^^^so sad but so true

 

No, they definitely are not listening, and no flame suit required. I’d rather have one of Murray’s cars over any new Ferrari…or even not so new LaFerrari, etc. He has shown what Ferrari could do if it wanted to. Engineering aside, just in regard to styling…which I admit is totally subjective…his cars are beautifully organic compared to the scooped, scalloped, spoilered, vented things being produced in Maranello.

 

I agree with all the points above (they don't need to change anything since most wealthy people only really want a wealth symbol and couldn't care less about gated box or NA 9000 rpm engine.

But why not do both? Evidently they are making a lot of $$ and will make even more now with that ShUV so why not have 1 or 2 old school models?

Who cares if it's not faster than a Tesla, but with a gated box, a screaming v8 and v12, 500 or 600hp, 1300kgs and beautiful styling. I'm sure they would sell out instantly at $500k or $800k or even $1m.

They just don't want to do it.

 

This was highly predictable when the company went public. It’s all about quarterly reports and shareholder value now.

 

SP1 or SP2

Neither is a hybrid nor turbo, chassis features CF, both weigh less than 3,600 pounds, you're not forced to buy additional carbon/plastic, Interior is completely custom low production. The fact that it's cheaper than the T50 and most importantly, much easier than that car to get service.

@bobbyd, are you paying attention??

 

They sold themselves out long before that... Long long long before that... Like when Enzo was still alive and healthy

 

Ferrari has tiers. I don't understand why folks don't understand this.

You have bottom feeders like me that they don't care about.*
You have folks that would like to dabble (Roma/Portofino) and get started
You have folks that move on to their 'mainstream' cars (296/SF90/Purosangue)
You have folks that take it to next level SPs/2025, I don't know anybody that says an SP1/SP2 are not thrilling, I don't think they've driven one if so.
You have folks that want to race (Challenge/FXX/F1 Clienti)
You have folks that do race (F1)

Ferrari has a seat for almost every budget, skill level, and audience.

*I say this tongue in cheek, Ferrari SpA, has given me far MORE than any other car manufacturer, PERIOD.

 

Ive been saying this for years.


Ferrari needs to understand what kind of company they are.

They are either the fastest or a luxury brand.

They have settled on luxury brand. A luxury brand is supposed to give you a unique experience.


They should focus on the experience... Buying experience of Ferrari is terrible... And what is important is the driving experience. We can all put up with ****ty buying experience if the car is phenomenal.

The electircs are going to smoke everything. Period full stop. The difference between a minivans acceleration and a supercars will be negligible and almost incalculable and insignificant on the street.

Time to focus on experience.

Give us a small high reving V12 or V8 that sounds like an f1 car coupled to a manual gear box in a lightweight car.

Just take a 355 engine (timing chains this time please) put it in a lotus Elise or Alfa 8c style chassis... And let pinninfarina do the styling (not those morons doing it now who make everything look Japanese) the car would be perfect. Give it little power steering assist. Hell don't even give it a roof. Make it only come in red with blue seats and hand painted sheilds and charge 2 million for it. You would sell out 1000 cars a year no problem.

 

I disagree. I'll give you a counterpoint...

It has only been with this healthy balance sheet and public offering that the "icona cars" have come to life. Tailor made etc... Are at an all time high.

There is more customization available than the last 50 years combines. Remember... Ferrari wouldn't even paint f40s a different color... All cars left red and then we're repainted.

The healthy balance sheet is working. I am an optimist and a brand fan boy .. I'm hoping the SUV does even more strengthening to the balance sheet and we can get some sort of 250tr homage.

 

Im a Monza fan. Absolutely love it. But it still isnt what the G33 or 50 will offer in terms of experience. It's a great start though. There is enough space for a $3m SP car and a sub $1m "mass" produced mid engined NA/Gated box/CF chassis car.

 

I'm not hating on the T50 by any means. If the desire is something harder-edged, I'll be the first to admit having to take bugs out of my teeth is hard enough for me.

 

I think them focusing on being a lux brand has given them the cash to be able to have some pet projects like the ones we would love. Also the fact that there are millions of UHNW in the world who could buy 2/3 cars per year at $500k+

 

Agreed, it's a valid want to have something more 'pure' and then we have manual of course. But say what you will, the manual is slower on track. Hence, I argue it's against the ethos.

I never saw Ferrari as the brand that positioned itself as the champion for the auto enthusiast masses, I think Porsche has that on lock.

A simple, mid-engine, lower-budget car is what Dino was supposed to be right? The market hated it then. Should Ferrari do it again? Market a lower line car with some Ferrari "DNA" under a sub-brand?

I would argue that sort of what the 4C was.

 

Porsche NOW has that on lock or for the last 10 or 15 years what have you.

But their prices are getting astronomical as well. Gt3s used to be premium money now they are supercar like money. 200k and now with premiums. 300k. (but I won't hold the premium against them as it's out of their control)

Honestly that's what I thought Maserati was. Maserati was Ferraris entry brand. Now it was mismanaged... But had they had this mc20 10 years ago (mc20 like) Maserati would look much different to most of us.

And yes the 4c was a great car and a good stepping stone

 

I think all that stuff is pretty superficial compared with the brilliant engineering and design that Murray is doing.