The million dollar Question: TDF vs CGT vs Senna

I've driven both and much prefer the F12tdf.

Looks - For my eyes the F12tdf looks gorgeous - what's there not to love. Modern day interpretation of 275 GTB, my fav car of all time. The CGT is stunningly cool within a Teutonic context, and probably one of the best looking (if not THE best looking) German cars ever built. But I'm forced to admit, certain design elements have sort of a dated 90's look to them. Overall, I think the F12tdf looks better.

Sound - For my ears the F12tdf sounds gorgeous - a mechanical V12 symphony. Sounds so good you find yourself changing gears more often than you need to, just to hear the engine sing at different pitches and levels of rpm. The CGT likewise has a beautiful race-derived sound, but interestingly, is not as present inside the cockpit as the Tdf. You have to have the windows down to be treated to it. Likely has to do with the placement of the engine i.e. front mid-engine vs rear mid-engine. Net, F12tdf has fuller, richer, more symphonic sound, which also happens to be more accessible, either windows up or windows down.

Engine - While one is tempted to use the word "explosive" to describe the Tdf's engine, that word still falls short. More like "nuclear." Maybe it's the 13.5:1 compression ratio in combination with mechanical lifters that produce brutal delivery of 770 hp. Not that the 12.0:1 CGT engine's 600 hp is a slouch. But comparatively, it needs to be wound up to feel the power. It winds, whereas the Tdf explodes.

Brakes - Both have carbon-ceramics, but the CGT's older gen doesn't have nearly the bite of the Tdf's. You have to get heat into the CGT brakes to get the most out of them. The Tdf brakes are always there.

Gearbox - Perhaps the biggest difference between the two. In short, the Tdf engine and gearbox are perfectly and seamlessly melded. This gearbox is made for this engine - and this engine is made for this gearbox. The shifts are miraculously good. And while I do still love driving a proper manual, to me the CGT engine and gearbox are not in harmony together as with the Tdf. Without a flywheel, getting a CGT off the line from a stop is..... an exercise. It takes practice. What I found works best is NOT to give it gas. Basically leave it near idle, let the clutch out at a steady rate, and once you know it's fully engaged, then give it gas. If you give it gas while engaging clutch, it grabs, complains, and sometimes stalls if you don't get it just right. Old habits die hard and sometimes one engages the clutch like one with a flywheel. You're quickly reminded why you don't do that with this car. Once moving it all works well, but honestly is no better than a 997 C2S in terms of feel. Net, I don't think the CGT transmission is a "plus" for the car, whereas with the Tdf the harmonious relationship between engine/gearbox is a huge plus.

Composure - During CGT development, Walter Rohrl said it was the first time in his life he was ever scared of a car. I'm probably 1% the driver of Rohrl, so this is meaningful info. I've driven Tdf at 100 mph, dropped a gear, and broken the tires loose -- and lived to tell about it! If I did that in the CGT, I'd likely have wrapped myself around a telephone pole. Both these cars deserve requisite respect. Actually BIG respect. But only one of them is widely referred to as a widow-maker (CGT).

Racing - Tdf derives engine components from XX racing program, whereas CGT derives engine components from stillborn 1999 LeMans prototype project that never made it off the ground or to the track. Who in their right mind wouldn't want an engine derived from this:



Mood - There's not been a single time I've driven Tdf w/o laughing hysterically out loud how truly incredible the car is. The CGT produces a more serious mood, one where you feel like you have to concentrate not to make a mistake. Fun vs Serious. Italian vs German. Their personalities do reflect their genetics.

Quantity - 799 Tdfs versus approx 1,300 CGTs.

Note 1 - I've driven the Tdf with both Pirellis and Michelins. There's something about the Pirellis that do NOT work well with the Tdf's Virtual Short Wheelbase. Night and day difference. I'd never drive this car with Pirellis again, period.

Note 2 - Those who say Tdf is just a re-paneled F12 couldn't be more wrong. Same as saying an Indian Bengal Tiger is just an overgrown domestic tabby cat. One will bite you, the other will kill and eat you.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hands down CGT….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Beautiful summary. The tdf would also be my choice among the three.

 

Great to hear drivers impressions all three are great rides.
Personally would buy 599 Aperta GTO engine b

 

Well done but I don't know about CGT making the driver more serious - tops off manual shifting is like being part of a symphony and when pushed rock n roll artist.
Owners wear sneakers t-shirt and jeans with a cap and it's a care free surfer soul who made some bucks along the way. It's a lot like Senna owners that want the fastest street car with scissor doors rear engine view and glass at your knees. It's for someone who wants pure adrenaline and hair raising that's insane or maybe not but more than likely has the devil in them.

The guys who can't drive a CGT like myself belong in F1 shifting or safer manual cars (own Viper 850hp) - drove my CGT and got the full experience which is out of this world insanity.

Senna vertigo acceleration add aero and the best brakes that will make your chest feel heavy,

I get it - tdf is a great car but if you really want to drive and can - Senna CGT are race cars and takes a race car driver to extract it's potential. Tdf is a wild gorgeous ride but it's still a GT base car- it's the cat you described in comparison. No offense all three are great cars but 9/10th's in a Senna / CGT and you will know the engineers intent to build a race car that is street legal.

Personally will not recommend CGT to 99.9999% - requires serious skills.

I get we are in Tdf territory that embraces a very cool ride - enjoy!

 

Concur, TDF is a GT car, and a wonderful one at that with amazing looks esp vs Senna.
CGT and Senna and soon to be Valhalla and Valk are different purposes.

 

The CGT may be the best value in super cars today. Great sound, manual, huge torque. It’s a handful. Trying to engage first gear stopped at a signal going uphill is a Herculean feat.


I wrote that when a CGT was 750k. Sold her at 1.3. In today’s world should I say sold they?

 

Couldn’t have said it better… well said!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The Senna and the CGT are not race cars (especially the CGT).

I own a a 488 Challenge Evo. That’s a race car


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

True, but I bet the Senna laps faster than the 488 Evo. In fact the 765 is quite a bit faster at Sonoma than the 488 Evo. Lots of other differences between them but for a few laps some of these street cars are very fast.

 

If that is true then I am stumped trying to figure out how. Given chassis, suspension, brakes, slicks, and engine don't see how a competition only machine could lap slower than a luxury show car. Maybe we are at the limit of driver ability and downforce becomes a deciding factor in the case of the Senna? Or maybe in the race class of the Evo the Senna exceeds restrictions?

 

The cars I referenced have incredible speed, much faster than my 488 Evo not to mention the braking. Also the weight is in the Mclarens advantage. Big difference is that the race car has slicks and the brakes do a better job lap after lap where the street cars will start to fade at some point unless modified.

With this said I would rather not run hard laps on my street cars and keep the track work to the race cars.

 

True, a track car is very different purpose built.
But the DNA and heart of the CGT stemmed directly from racing lineage. I can’t think of another car where the engine and technology was crated from F1 or LeMans and then made into a production car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

F50 engine extracted from F1 and de-tuned slightly.

 

918 Spyder.

 

Is there race technology in the hybrid system that is in F1 or LeMans? Curious, and I’d love a 918 Spyder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The V8 is a derivate of the RS Spyder LMP2 sport prototype.

 

I found the TDF more visceral than the 918, TBH. I haven’t driven a P1 but would imagine it’s also more exciting.

 

It’s a nice sentiment, but cars have neither DNA nor heart. I do understand what you mean though. And Ferrari has more racing heritage and what you call DNA than just about any other brand.

My point was simply that the Senna and the CGT are just pretty cool track-oriented street cars. It is a misnomer to represent them as race cars.

 

Skip to 18:40 for LDM describing F50

 

I find this hard to believe but if true, what does it say for the SF90 Stradale, which laps quicker than the Senna? I mean Ferrari's road cars outlapping Ferrari's race cars... madness.

 

I have both cars, the performance difference with 765 is incredible. I can't speak for the 2 ton SF90 but I doubt it can do more than a couple laps before the brakes are gone. Just too much weight to repeatedly stop under serious load.

 

I guess it won't be race car - like consistent, but according to reports the brakes are amazing and there was no drop in performance on multi-lap stints. By the way, 1740 kg, not 2 tonnes.

 

Over 3900lbs real world and the brakes will cook on hard laps. It's a very fast GT car with no luggage space, not a track car in any way. Straightline speed.

 

This particular SF90 is on the heavy side. Others are much lighter, due to specs I guess. Evo weighed their test car at 1740 kg and it acquitted itself very admirably on the track.