308GT4 10458

Some of y’all know I have been looking for a gt4 project for several years. Been distracted with other cars but one fell into my lap for a good price and its mine.


I’m starting this thread to ask for opinions on levels of restoration and any history that maybe out there.


It comes after sitting for a bit with a registry entry as
1. Series 1, partially rebadged
2. Thought to be white/boxer originally but was at least red then white again recently.
3. Mileage about 70K when one totals the original speedo and the new one
4. Interior is a Time Capsule
5. Records included as was a spare ( 5th wheel) and toolkit.


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Continuing the stream of consciousness

Not sure if I want to take it back to all original ( what does that mean right @dyerhaus?) or back to a period correct spec in a color of my choosing. Some of y’all know how much I love VERDE PINO…….Or Rosso Barchetta. Or….

For example I hate the side markers but does removing them mean the car is not true to spec? What about reversing the rebadging to DINO badge in the front and steering wheel? It will not be a concurs car but my car. That is the goal.

I will not do the work myself but am completely open to suggestions and dos and donts for restoration of this car.

I am aware I will spread more than it is worth except to me. My plan would be to keep this one and have my children deal with it later when I cannot drive, don’t know my name or am not around.

My preference in process would be to do frame off restoration and go through the entire care and make it right.


Thoughts?


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This is always a fun discussion when it concerns a 308 GT4 as there's so many different opinions, directions, and "correctness" ideals that one can simply get completely confused as to what's right and what's not. That was a struggle I hit too, in a couple of spots.

Aside from being repainted to red, my car was almost exactly as it was when it was sold from the dealer… or was it? That's where some confusion sets in.

My car was badged as a Ferrari (as most of these are), but it was clearly done AFTER it was built because the horizontal rectangular inset could still be felt on the backside of the nose. Apart from being painted red, it was assumed the rest of the car was the same as the day it was bought. However, I ended up discovering other things that likely weren't the same.

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When I looked at some old photos that came with my car, I discovered that the car had a different sideview mirror, and didn't have its windshield wipers at all. It's possible other things were missing at the time those photos were shot as well. The gentleman I bought the car from worked really hard to get the car back to as "original" as possible. He found the right wipers and even added a Cromodora Astro III side mirror, which is the correct mirror for the car (but not the one it had in a picture from 1989). And, then (getting even more granular), that Cromodora mirror that was added was still incorrect! While it was the correct brand and model, the markings are the wrong place thus indicating it was a much later manufactured mirror than the car to which it was attached. I've since found the period correct mirror.

My car also didn't have the stock steering wheel, in fact, it had the same steering wheel you have in yours. Apparently, it was really common to add that steering wheel in as it's a bit fatter and slightly smaller. Personally, I didn't like that steering wheel and found an original and put that in.

But then came time for repainting… I knew the original color was Verde Pino, which is just a stunning color. I used to love the darker blue colors on this car (in particular Blu Dino - 106-A-72). That was my dream, a 1975 Dino 308 GT4, Blu Dino over Beige, still badged as a Dino. While I still LOVE that color, once I saw Verde Pino, I forgot all about Blu Dino! So, my dream changed to Verde Pino, thus putting the car back to its original color. While in the process, I wanted to make sure it was re-badged as a Dino. The good news is, the rest of the car (interior, engine, suspension, etc.) needed nothing, it was already in the shape I wanted it to be in. So really just a color change was all that was needed, not full-on restoration. Of course, a color change on a vintage car is still a whole lot of work.

Once in the paint shop, I was asked it I wanted to delete the ugly US side markers. Crap. This became a really tough decision. I went back and forth on that a dozen times before I reached my final decision, which was to have them deleted. Why? Well, first off they're ugly. But, more importantly, Marcel Gandini did not design the car with such hideous side markers, we have the US DOT to thank for that. Same with the bumpers, but I couldn't change those out. I would have had to source Euro bumpers (which isn't impossible, but it's also not cheap), possibly other hardware for mounting, and we would have had to fabricate a lot of body work to make it look correct. I wasn't ready for the expense, even though Euro bumpers look so much better. That being said, I also kind of like the big US bumpers. For some reason, I find those as an endearing quirky thing from the 70s and 80s, much like other attributes of the car. They just don't bother me nearly as much as the side markers, and they actually do provide a slightly elevated level of protection than Euro bumpers.

Back to the side marker decision, I also realized that winning concours wasn't really something I care about. I love showing the car, in fact my car will be in four shows starting THIS WEEK: The Concours at Pasadera, Monterey Motorsports Kickoff, Concorso Italiano, and Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance (as a guest of Ferrari in their 75th Anniversary display). But winning those shows? I don't care about that. I just think these cars should be seen, loved, and admired. Deleting those side markers would be point deductions, but I get to drive around in a car that looks a lot better without them. And finally, I also realized my car would never be concours level as it has the MSD digital ignition installed, which is visible through the trunk. I notice you have it too, but yours is installed under the hood (I've actually never seen it installed there before).

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When you get into Ferrari judging, they look for "factory correct" which is nonsense when you get to older cars, and especially when you get to the 308 GT4. Some models left the factory as a Dino, some left as Ferrari. Rebadging, when done at the dealer, was pretty much never done to the spec outlined in the July 1, 1975 memo. Should all stereos be removed as these cars didn't ship with stereos, they're all dealer installed. It's pretty absurd idea as dealers did so many things to cars, especially back in the 70s and 80s. And, you can't buy a car direct from the factory, so can the car ever really be "factory correct" in the first place? That didn't drill license plate holes at the factory, that was done at the dealer. Do we need to fill those in? Most judges won't know how to properly judge a 308 GT4, it's probably the most confusing car due to its history—so many different possibilities.

However, there's a bit of an odd thing about "factory correct" and Ferrari judging: Paint color doesn't matter, as long as it's a color that was available when the car was made. It seems odd that they don't care if the car was the same color it left the factory, since they are sticklers for "factory correct", but for some reason, the color doesn't have the be factory correct, just period correct.

So, in the end, I simply went with what I wanted the car to look like. I think I'm best described as a "period correct" guy rather than "factory correct" or "dealer correct" or anything else. Meaning, I don't mind minor changes/mods to a car if it's something that would have (or could have or should have) been done in the period the car was built. Removing those side markers is period correct as other countries don't require them. The funny part is, the side markers and the MSD digital ignition are the only things that aren't "factory correct" about my car, but my car is exactly the way I want it to be—and that's what makes me happy.

Here's a few shots… I wanted to lead off with the side markers. When we removed them to strip the car, the holes are cut very poorly, and they're all in slightly different locations (meaning they're not uniformly positioned on the car). I think they free-handed the whole installation of these things.

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Now, look how much better the car looks without those side markers, even though it still has the US bumpers:

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This is the steering wheel that was in my car when I bought it, and it was what was in there when the previous owner bought it too. He didn't know it was an after market steering wheel. Below that is a photo of the correct steering wheel for the car.

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And just look at that Dino badge against the Verde Pino…

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And speaking of Dino badges, it's really hard to find an original one. There are some good reproductions out there, but check out the shot below. This shows an original Dino badge on the left, and a reproduction badge on the right. This particular reproduction badge isn't the best, but it gives you idea of just how different they are.

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Good luck with your restoration—you're going to discover all sorts of things and probably hit a wall or two when it comes to making a decision about what to do about this or that. Whatever you do, you'll make the right choice.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Chris, I'm a period-correct kind of guy. I want my car to look original to all but the most serious experts, but am willing to make well-concealed compromises for the sake of usability. I have Sam Saprunoff's modern fuse blocks that are concealed behind the original covers. I installed high-energy halogen bulbs inside European reflectors (3x the lumens, and not obvious like LEDs), with high-capacity wiring and relays inside of period-correct insulators. I did switch to brighter LED brake lamps, just for safety reasons. I also have the electronic ignition, placed high in the trunk above the wheel well.

Like Chris, I will also finish off my projects by reverting to Dino in front (I have a Series I from early 1975) and by filling-in the side marker beacons. And, if I get really ambitious, I think I will pull out the back seat and build a luggage shelf to match the OEM photos I have collected.

Good luck with your project, Scott. It looks like you have almost everything you'll need to end up with an awesome car!

 

In FCA national level judging our overall intention is to never enforce a set of standards that prevents use of the car. It is to encourage owners to keep the cars very close to what Ferrari built. So, considering that, how are you going to use it with no license plates? How are you going to mount those plates in a legal fashion without drilling holes? As for paint colors after a few disagreements on paint hue we dispensed with any ridiculous notion any human can accurately eyeball paint color and determine exact color match from memory?

Radios. As I said, we never want to enforce rules that prevent use of the car. Allowing the tidy installation of a radio where none was is part of that concept. Most Ferraris had provisions for a radio but in North America customers had preferences in radios so Ferrari of North America ordered all cars radio delete for their clients benefit. We allow use of that provision, not unreasonably so I think. We have never laid claim to requiring absolute 100% originality. We do lay claim to the concept Ferraris are meant to be driven. Do not confuse us with the Corvette Club.

 

I'm going to have to look into getting that electronic ignition relocated. I really don't like it where it's at!

I didn't mention that, but it sounds like I did the same things to my headlights that you did to yours. And that should actually acceptable with Ferrari judges:

"Some safety modifications are allowable in order to safely drive the car such as safety belts and outside rear view mirrors (for the older cars)."​

I would think lights fall into that category as I know my old ones may as well not have ever existed they were so dim!

 

Believe it or not, there actually is a way to safely mount a license plate without holes… in fact, the guy who created this made it for a Dino 246 he was restoring and wanted it literally as it came from the factory. I actually considered that as I know the FCA only likes plain or no license plate frames, so magnets would make it real easy to simply pull the plate right off at a show:

https://carbonio.com/products/magnetic-license-plate-mount​

For paint colors, I know hue isn't an issue, but color also isn't an issue as long as it's period correct. Meaning, like in my case, if the car left the factory in green, but then was painted red, that's acceptable because it was a period color (even though it's not the color that car was painted at the factory). That just seems odd to me since the guidelines state:

"This guideline is to help you prepare for objective judging, which you will find personally rewarding as it measures how close your Ferrari is to the factory’s original product."​

To me, a different color than it left the factory is a pretty big miss when it comes to "how close your Ferrari is to the factory’s original product."

I think for me the wording of "factory original" is confusing. You can't buy direct from the factory, and how you get your car from the dealer also isn't exactly as it left the factory (especially with older cars). And then there's big things (paint) that if changed don't count against points, yet they aren't the color they left the factory. That's what bugs me about the judging. Maybe if the phrase "factory original" wasn't used, that would clear up the confusion (because, it's really not what you're looking for).

 

The word original is applied as any original. If your car came with 3 carbs we allow 6 if it was an original option. If your car came with Borranis you can install alloys if the car could have originally come with them. Ferrari actually offered many colors originally.

California vehicle code requires a firmly attached license plate. Several judges I am aware of have already defined that in court as bolted on. I said "in a legal fashion".

If you want rigid rules preventing you from making your Ferrari look like a Ferrari you would have liked to have ordered had you the chance you'll have to go somewhere else. We have gone out of our way to not to be like those guys. Maybe get into Corvettes. They think that way too.

 

I’m curious, I scour the entire earth every day for a car exactly like yours in about the same type of condition. How does one just “fall into your lap”???? I think I have the worst luck when looking for these things.

 

Thank you all for the gift of guidance and knowledge.

I’m Probably one level less ocd about some of the originality in the decisions but we Will see. Usually I pity rings with me as I drive my cars and this one Will have to compete with some special cars for the drive to work for example.


A lot to consider here. Hopefully this thread will help
Others as well with a living dialogue and record
Of these conversations. I have a feeling ten to fifteen years is the outside limit to these cars getting restored from a cost to value approach.

Paint is the beginning of dilemmas. The word on prior
Dino GT restoration was they painted the panels like the factory compete with drips. All
Single stage and arguably better due to
Paint composition but is it the color or the process.


First as Chris suggested I need to confirm the original
Configuration and color. Were there early boxer configurations or was it later and or done by the dealers as well as
Some
Have suggested.


White boxer would be nice.

Anyone with prior info on this one ?


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No one said I wanted that, that's just how I (and others) interpret the written rules (and the score sheets I've seen and discussed with the owners). Thanks for your understanding.

 

So when the word "original" is in between "factory's" and "product" it makes the sentence easily interpreted as "the way it left the factory."

That may not be the intended meaning, but that's how it's conveyed. That's why I said it's a confusing sentence because it clearly means different things to different people. However, my interpretation gets further confirmed in the guidelines (emphasis mine):

"For older cars, provide period pictures, build sheets and other evidence as needed to support the car’s original configuration. The newer cars are almost one-offs given the range of potential options so be prepared to show how your car reflects its original as-delivered configuration. For newer cars, the original window sticker, invoice, or Ferrari dealer option lists and associated dealer invoices are often useful to document unique orders and OEM dealer-installed options available for the car when new."​

You know that "as-delivered configuration" is not the same as "factory available options." For example, if I bought a car then later changed the wheels out with factory optional wheels, according to the guidelines in that bolded and underlined sentence above, my car is no longer in its "original as-delivered configuration," thus point deductions.

Again, for like the fifth time now, this is why the guidelines are confusing because they're poorly written and send the opposite message that you say they mean. I like your interpretation, in fact, I agree whole-heartedly that it should be the way you're suggesting. Unfortunately, that's not how the guidelines read and that's not what happens on the field.

 

I had originally heard that "boxer" paint was done by the dealers, but then I discovered that it was, indeed, a factory option. I'm not sure when that option started, as in, was it available on day one? I do have a friend with a 1974 Euro model, his has never been repainted, and it has the boxer paint:

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I think the boxer paint works best on light colors like white, yellow, and silver.

 

Looks so good in that combo with the 16s.

One thing is the other colors look great still and in their versions today. No sure about white which IMHO comes off as flat.



For those of you who did major restoration and or frame off could I ask for approximate budgets depending obviously on what you started with for let’s say major engine, paint, body work ?

My sense is reproduction stuff is readily available but not as high quality. I mean one could build a gt4 off eBay parts.



ScottS

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Budget at a minimum $35k for paint and body.

 

Those were both recently written and if you had any actual experience you would understand why. What do you do with a 275 GTS with bumper mounted fog lights? No one ever saw one before and it was not a factory option. Well the build sheet shows this particular 275 had a customer request to have fog lights. The factory complied and installed fog lights. Under our rules they are perfectly OK for this car only. The factory build sheet proved it. What do you do with a 458 with a serpent painted on the front end? Build sheet proved it was done at special request at the factories custom department in Maranello. Again ok by virtue of the owner supplying a build sheet. In fact that just recently started when my other half took over the national program. Since about the 430 every Ferrari is essentially a one off car due to the factories eagerness to offer the skys the limit customer customization.

As for your experience, have you ever entered in a National FCA concours? If not you have not been subjected to those rules and procedures because the various regions and chapters are free to conduct their program anyway they like.

 

So, just to be clear, even though the guidelines clearly state "the car’s original configuration" and "show how your car reflects its original as-delivered configuration" and "factory’s original product" and "the primary focus of IAC/PFA judging is on authenticity and original condition" and "if they see inauthentic items that do not approximate the way the car was originally delivered" - what you're saying is that only applies to customized/unique requests from the customer, and has nothing to do with "normal" or "stock" cars that aren't customized. Meaning we can do whatever we want to our cars as long as it was an available period option—original factory configuration has no bearing despite what the guidelines say.

Even though the guidelines also call out customized/unusual options separately: "be ready to briefly answer and document what is unusual or different about your car?"

So when the judges say my dealer installed Dictaphone is "untidy," I'll be sure to point out it was delivered that way (which it was)… even though I can't possibly produce a build sheet to prove it as they didn't keep those kind of records in 1975. It's a period product, that did indeed come with the car. For another example, none of this stopped judges from dinging a 308 GTS QV that I showed and was judged at Hillsborough Concours this year, stating: "head unit stereo incorrect period" (even though it was, in fact, the stereo that was installed in the car when it was purchased new). That was contested and changed.

The guidelines I'm quoting are what were sent to me for Concorso Italiano coming up in a little over a week. I'm sorry, but those guidelines simply do not match what you're saying. No reasonable interpretation of those guidelines would lead anyone to think their car can deviate from its AS DELIVERED CONFIGURATION without getting points deducted.

I'm going to print this thread out and bring it with me to Concorso to ensure the judges understand that my car, or any other Ferrari, need not be in its AS DELIVERED CONFIGURATION, despite what the guidelines may say. Your way of thinking is much more reasonable, which is also my way of thinking when it comes to my car, and it's what the guidelines should actually say. But they don't.

For your amusement, I've attached the score sheet from the 308 GTS QV that I showed at Hillsborough Concours (I blurred out identifying information as I'm not trying to expose anyone for anything). FYI - it's not my car, it belongs to a friend who was showing all four of his Ferraris at the show. My friend also happens to have been a concours judge for many years, and has helped write the guidelines. In the score sheet you'll note the stereo comment. Also of note if the "front middle grill needs to be repainted" comment. The car was literally fresh from the paint shop (less then a month) and the front middle grill is not painted, it's anodized. Those two comments (amongst others I've seen in the past) are why I say most judges don't know how to properly judge any given model.

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There are some really good and high quality reproduction parts out there, you just have to search for them. There's also a lot of not-so-good ones too. For example, while my car was completely stripped and repainted, we replaced all the seals and weather stripping. On reassembly, we discovered some things that weren't right about the replacement parts. For example, the seal under the front hood was about an inch too tall and created problem shutting the front lid. The seals for the rear quarter windows were too short. The weather stripping for the door and door panels weren't actually the same as original, which created the problem of the window motors not being strong enough to go through the new seals. Lot's of little things like that will pop up, and a good restorer will know ways to fix them (as mine did).

My car was completely stripped, sanded, color changed. No interior, engine, or chassis work other than cleaning was done. Well, a couple of minor interior things that were done, but the total for those things was only $1000. The whole job ended up coming in at just over $60k. But the car is a show-stopper now.

 

I don’t believe you could build a GT4 buying parts off ebay. Body panels, glass, interior pieces appear pretty infrequently. The repro market is not nearly as comprehensive as say for a 911.



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Thanks for sharing your cost info, and for all the detail you have provided that gives context to what you have gotten for your money. And I agree with you, it's a show-stopper.

 

True. Hyperbole.


Thanks others for your real numbers it helps.


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