Latest in the Fuel Pump Saga

Backstory if interested.. but likely not needed at this point.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/328-wont-start-after-stalling.663050/

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/more-fuel-pump-assistance-needed-please.663396/

I was out of town last weekend so haven't driven it a lot, its been raining here so a week at least. There was a little time before this evening's rain when I came home so just took the car out to run a few errands and planned on visiting mom. Well, never made it there.

Took two tries to start, and chalked that up to the car sitting for a week. After making one stop, I came out, it acted like it was about to start and then died. Short version, I tried the safety switch wire, both new fuel pump relays, checked the fuse (yes did the steps one at a time). The pump is not running.

So.. nothing like 20 people walking by your Ferrari complimenting it as they realize you are trying to get it started .

Well.. I wasn't backing into the garage when it died this time, car was parked straight in a parking space. I guess it could be a short, but thinking more than likely a bad fuel pump? I can't find any record of it being changed in the service book.

Tomorrow I will try to jumper out the relays, but not really holding out hope here.

Here is the ugly---- the rain came at the same time as the flat bed. it is impossible to get the car in the garage and the question in my mind about whether are not the window seals are completely tight is no longer a mystery... they aren't. .. and... its supposed to rain for the next 10 days straight.

Oh at least it came with a Ferrari car cover.. it was in the box on the front seat when the car arrived and I only glanced at it. ... a closer look tonight and my immediate impression was .. this is not a water tight cover.. its a dust cover. A quick test under the faucet confirmed that one.

So my "new" 36 yr old baby is sitting in the driveway. tucked away from the street (impressive flatbed driver).. with new 4 mil poly covering the mid section and weighted down on the ground. I am not pleased about this, it looks and feels like its been garaged it's whole life and tonight its in the rain.

There will be some better answer found tomorrow (I hope). Maybe by some miracle I can get it started and in the garage. No rain till after lunch. I spoke to Euro Road & Racing just before they closed. He is willing to meet me tomorrow, but they have 60 cars on site LOL. I have no idea when they can get to a fuel pump or if they can keep me indoors. If I had the facilities to get under the car I'd look at tackling it myself, but.. I don't. If I can't find a way to get it under roof I will be finding the best waterproof cover I can locally.

So there we have it...

 

Turn it into an "E-car" for a bit! Use the starter to power the car.

Seriously, unless you've got quite a long distance to move it, just put 'er in gear and spin the starter. If you're concerned and want to make it easier on the starter, pull the spark plugs.

 

Its definitely a thought. The trouble is its a 90 degree corner and usually takes a little back and forth to negotiate, at least a 3 point. I am usually backing in but maybe forward will work better.

I'll look at it this morning. Also trying to arrange to get it taken in today, if they can keep it indoors... and looking for a waterproof cover. Still would much rather it be inside.

 

When I got it, my 87 328 arrived at about midnight, right at the beginning of a Nor'easter. The transport driver asked if he could drop it off early (instead of the next day) so he could get home to sleep in his own bed. In retrospect, that was a good move because the storm intensified dramatically the next day and we got many inches of rain. It was a steady light rain when the car arrived and the previous owner had told me he had no idea whether the roof/windows were watertight, since the car hadn't seen rain for the prior 15 years. So I threw a piece of tyvek house wrap over the roof and drove the car down my long gravel driveway in the dark. I couldn't figure out how to turn on the headlights so I had a flashlight poking out the driver's window. What a way to get a dream car home. I spent the next couple hours in the garage with a chamois drying the car. No harm done to the car, but I did feel pretty wet behind the ears!

I replaced my fuel pump in the course of addressing some warm-start issues that I traced to a leaking accumulator. I never had issues with the pump directly, but upon pulling it out, I found varnish/leaks around the outflow check valve and deterioration/leaks in the inflow hose connection barb, and the inflow hose (original) had severe ethanol damage. The pump looked rough overall so I decided to replace it while I had the tanks drained. The original pump is NLA (or $$ if you can find new old stock) and a lot of vendors charge big $$ for cross-match pumps which are actually generic Bosch parts. If you decide to replace the pump, look for Bosch USA #69532 which includes the Bosch 0 580 464 151 pump with the proper inflow adapter and outflow check valve. You'll save a lot of money if you can source it yourself. I got mine from Rock Auto for about $150. There is also a Bosch 0 580 464 125 pump that will work (for under $100) but it's longer and not as good of a fit in the 328 pump/accumulator mounting sled.

That said, nothing you've posted in the other threads makes me suspect the pump just yet. If +12V is not getting to the pump wire then I'd suspect something upstream. I know you've looked at most of that stuff already but to me it's still the most logical place to find a fault, not the pump. I guess I'd only suspect the pump if you blow fuses after a lengthy run time and can sort of narrow down that maybe the pump overheats and seizes with time.

If you do replace the pump, there is a bunch of "while you're in there" work that should be done, since the tanks will need to be drained. Would not hurt to replace the accumulator if it's original (they develop internal leaks with age and can cause warm start issues) and the fuel tank connector pipe sleeves will probably need replacing if they are original. Tank to pump hose will probably need to be replaced. I also did the fuel filler sleeve although the original seemed fine. I have lots of extra hose (and some clamps) for all of these items so let me know if you need any of that stuff. I had to buy 3' sticks of the various sleeve hoses just to slice off 4" lengths, so I have lots of extra.

 

Also, do you know when the fuel filter was last replaced? I have heard of scenarios where a blocked filter can cause the pump to act up, although I would have to think the engine would always run lousy if that were the case.

 

The next chapter is now the car being at European Road and Racing. The only think I know so far - there is no power at the pump. He was willing to check that much today so he knew to order a pump Monday or not.
it is something else, but not a relay, not a fuse, and not the safety switch.

At least the car is out of the rain.

 

What about the old way of doing it?

pushing your car into the garage?

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Some ideas might get by me on occasion... but I wouldn't have missed pushing it into the garage.

Just to make the garage usable I had to put a 9 ft long ramp out side the door with a crown in the concrete to make sure the car wont drag bottom. It's a 10-12" fall on the far side, 7" or so on the near side in 9 ft. 90 degree corner.

It doesn't look very steep in the photo but I spent 20 minutes with the concrete guys figuring out how to set it up. Under the cover is a '75 TR-6, and it drug bottom before that ramp was poured.

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Well you were right as was a couple others who suspected more of an electrical issue. It did blow a fuse once in this journey after one of the longer days of driving.... but today tells us there is still something electrical.

I hope they can spend time on it this week.

 

yep sometimes it blows a fuse or the relay gets bad, I bought a 5 pin fuel pump Bosch relay as a spare, the exact replacement to the original, but lots of the other relays will work like the air horn hooter for example. the previous owner of my car replaced the fuel pump, it did not go completely bad, it was idling intermittently at times even when the car ran hot, turned out to be a faulty fuel pump.

the older pre-88.5 cars can have the fuel pump wire connector go bad (over heats over time), where it plugs in behind the passenger footwell mentioned here a few times on Ferrari-chat.

 

Well... The plugs were a different style and maybe I should have dug deeper... or obviously I should have dug deeper....

However, final answer is the "frazzled" connector. It's one of the long plugs directly into the relay/fuse board. I looked at the only one of a similar style to what was in the photos and not the same obviously.
Important thing is, should be back in my hands tomorrow





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nice find !

 

Well that was easy! Seems like a fairly common issue. It happened to my car during the previous owner's time. Be curious to hear how they fix it, whether they try to replace pins in the connectors or just bypass the connector all together.

 

I haven't pulled the plug to view it myself. I will do and take a photo.
He said he pulled the single burned receiver out of the white plastic plug and cut/hollowed out the hole larger, then used a standard brass spade connector (similar to image below) which grabs the factory male pin better than the original. with the plug back in place you can't see it, but he said if you pull that plug you have to individually pull that one wire by hand. He said Testarossas had a similar issue.

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A few years ago, I owned two F355, one 348 and one 328, not to mention a Porsche 997, and a GT3, plus two Ducatis all at the same time. I have only a 2 car garage so there were always four or five vehicles parked outside, rain or shine. They did not melt in the rain. They continue to look good with a wax. I have downsized now so only one or two are parked outside. So relax about the 308 being out in the rain.

As for your fuel pump connection, while you may think that wire crimp is the only issue, it is not. The fuel pump is probably 20-30 years old and they suck up more current when they run now. That means the bad connection gets more heat and less voltage is present at the fuel pump. Repair the crimped connector and replace the fuel pump.

 

I appreciate the advice. I checked the current draw on the pump circuit before it completely quit and it was between 9-10 amps. Per advice of others in the forums it didn't seem out of line so since it was running I wasn't seeing it as "urgent." I will check it again with the connection fixed and see if anything is different.
That said I wouldn't want to be waiting on a time bomb if its ready to go.

Belt service is due next September (2023) and I was planning on making a list of must / potential "to do's" to price and plan to be done at that time. As of yet there isn't a lot on the list, above the normal belt service or normal service interval work. If not before the pump will be on the discussion list at the time.

As for the rain its really a couple concerns. The biggest of which is the fact that the seals between the windows and the targa top and/or door is not perfect and did allow some water through. I wasn't sure one way or the other that first time but now its not in question, the carpet was damp after an hour of heavy rain. This is obviously an item I need to look at more closely. The car is original paint and aside from the chip here or there because its a driver.. looks really good. I'd rather keep it garaged and out of the constant UV, weather, rain, wind. I wasn't panicking about a couple days, but just want to keep it looking good. There is a nearby tree that has dropped a couple limbs right in that area too in bad storms. If you see the bent basketball goal in the driveway its tree limb damage.
The immediate concern really was the rain.

Thanks again.

 

Check the windshield seal as well.