Scudding Swiss F1 Pump Relay questions

https://www.scuding.com/Shop/en/ecu-solutions/101-smart-emt-relay-ecu.html#/emt_ecu_version-basic/pump_relay_plug_type-type_1_4_blades_2_x_6_3mm_2_x_9_5mm_terminals

Any downsides or issues with adding this over keeping the stock 50 amp relay? I have a 2009 430 F1.

Thanks,
Cheers,
Corey

 

I put one in my 2008 F1 last year and have had no issues. Works as advertised. I'm not 100% sure its really necessary with cars having the 50amp red relay, but I did it anyway.

 

They work, and are unquestionably an improvement over the OEM part. Some people find the beeping excessive though and disable that.

Downsides... you can buy about 25 50A relays for the price of this. You could make your relay an annual service item and still come out on top after 10 years...

 

Nice to have maybe .. necessary on a f430 nope

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Of course that is my humble opinion

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It sounds more than just a relay:

 

I installed it on my F430, had it for almost 2 years, no issues, works great.

And I have posted a review here.

 

Their indicator flasher is a handy item, the audio bleeping reminds you they are still on, very good gear but a bit pricy.

 

I sent mine back in for the latest firmware which removes the beeping (good beeps not alerts) by default.

 

I have had mine for 2 years and it has helped me be proactive with my F1 maintenance. Noticing longer pump run times and more frequent intervals alerted me to replace my accumulator and remove my actuator to bleed and tighten the screws. You do have to be careful chasing ghosts, though. I will get an error every once in a while, but unless it is recurrent I let it go.

 

I have it in my 360. There is a subtle-but-not-subtle noticeable improvement in the F1 system's performance...meaning the faster you're going, the more you notice...and the faster you upshift/downshift, the more you notice. So whether you get a performance bump that you'll notice depends upon how hard you're pushing your car. That said, there are reasons to do this on both a 360 and F430 that have nothing to do with performance.

On both, quoting from the website:

“Our advanced firmware algorithms can even anticipate the hydraulic pressure needs (Advanced version only).”

“One of the other smart features we've integrated is the elimination of several TCU bugs. Indeed, we discovered for example that the TCU has hysteresis issues when the hydraulic pressure starts to drop and gets between 2 thresholds. In this case, the TCU will try to power the hydraulic pump for ultra short periods of time between 100 and 250 milliseconds which has a catastrophic effect on the electromagnetic relay and the hydraulic pump. The Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU will detect and automatically eliminate such requests coming from the TCU.”

“The Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU integrates also many protections against reverse polarity, load dump, overvoltage, undervoltage, short-circuit, current limitation, thermal, ESD and transients. The power consumption is extremely low thanks to our advanced sleep status (0.04mA), standby status (25mA) and active status (30 mA). Even in sleep status, the Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU will still continue to monitor the hydraulic system and will alert and prevent any abnormal behavior. Our firmware has also an automatic self-protection, failure detection and recovering system which makes it very reliable. Tropicalisation of the electronic components and board (PCB) ensures that this solution will work in any climate conditions, even extreme. It integrates also an anti-vibration protection.”​

Copy-pasting from much discussion about this product on the 360/F430 FB group (where there are well over 100 posts about this unit):

• The mechanical relay even when new is less efficient than this replacement
• The mechanical relay puts your TCU in jeopardy whereas this isolates it (opto-electrical connection to TCU)
• The mechanical relay becomes less efficient each time it’s activated
• The mechanical relay’s life is about 10,000 activations which equates to about 50 hrs city driving @ 200 shifts/hr
• This never degrades
• This starts better than a relay and stays better than a relay
• This protects your pump motor
• This eliminates erroneous buggy calls from the TCU to the pump
• This keeps the F1 system at pressure and gets it to 100% pressure faster than the relay
• The smart version of this keeps you apprised of calls to the motor and the duration thereof
• Link to smart vs. dumb version comparison: https://www.scuding.com/Shop/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=49

Regarding the F430 specifically (not applicable to 360), Stef at Scuding Swiss says:

"On the F430, it's even more critical since the E-DIFF is a constant big consumer of hydraulic pressure."​

With respect to both 360 and F430, he says:

"I can only add that the eMT ECU is NOT a ON/OFF switch like a relay but a specialized pump motor driver controlled by a microprocessor which will start the pump motor at once at 100% torque. This will keep the pump motor much healthier and shorten the pump cycles. No more burned relay contacts. Faster pump cycles (<2 secs) provide more constant hydraulic pressure available for the entire hydraulic system and the gear actuator + TOB will be happier as there will be less hesitation when the pressure drops too low."​

NOTE: It's important to spec the correct socket config for your car: https://www.scuding.com/Shop/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=44

 

It is impossible to get any performance gains from this module .

The pump runs and builds pressure which the accumulator keeps as long as possible ..when pressure lowers the pump runs again .. whether it is a mech relay or solid state relay you will not get any performance gains in a normal operating system

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Replace you accumulator folks! Car is old.

This device is there to help you when you don't understand why the pump is running too long and a few other corner cases. Don't buy it unless you store fresh water in case of emergency.

 

@flash32: Are you running this unit in your 360 or F430? What this ECU does NOT do is make the F1 system "shift faster". What it does do performance-wise is keep the accumulator at 100% pressure better than the relay. As mentioned in the post, there are non-performance reasons (foremost being electrically decoupling your TCU from the pump) to install it.

 

I am not questioning the non performance benefits( not saying there isn't or is any benefit there ..never researched that) .. just that about how the actuator will not shift faster or better .. the sub mill second time this unit will start pump faster (if any) will not keep the pressure in accumulator any different/better. The pressure sensor near the accumulator will cycle the pump from 40 ish bar to 60 bar ( in scud ..lower in others) .. so not sure what you mean keeping the accumulator at 100

I have been working in these units for a while now and know the mechanics of it probably better than most mechanics ..so i am stating what i know based on knowledge and owe it to the community to state facts based on science not seat of pants

It definitely has its merits but don't anyone to be fooled into that you will feel anything different .. not possible in a normal operating system

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There are two versions of this product: Basic and advanced. I'm only referring to the advanced (or "smart") version. The smart version predicts when the accumulator is below optimal pressure and will turn the pump on before the TCU would have called for it to do so: "Our advanced firmware algorithms can even anticipate the hydraulic pressure needs (Advanced version only)."

Further:

"One of the other smart features we've integrated is the elimination of several TCU bugs. Indeed, we discovered for example that the TCU has hysteresis issues when the hydraulic pressure starts to drop and gets between 2 thresholds. In this case, the TCU will try to power the hydraulic pump for ultra short periods of time between 100 and 250 milliseconds which has a catastrophic effect on the electromagnetic relay and the hydraulic pump. The Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU will detect and automatically eliminate such requests coming from the TCU."

"Considering that the relay is directly wired to the TCU, there is a high risk that the electronic components of the TCU will eventually be destroyed requiring its complete replacement (2K – 5K USD). Upgrading your relay to a 50A or worst 70A, which has bigger relay coils, will create even higher voltage peaks putting your TCU even more at risk... Most of the relays use only a small internal resistor to limit these voltage peaks which is far from being an efficient transient suppression solution! Some fewer relays have an internal diode (flywheel) which makes the relay polarity sensitive and increases the relay contact release time making the contacts to spark even more."

"It eliminates also all relay voltage peaks, transient and interference which can eventually destroy the TCU or decrease its performances. We've seen improvements where the pump run time decreased from 6 secs to 1.5 secs per cycle"

"The Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU integrates also many protections against reverse polarity, load dump, overvoltage, undervoltage, short-circuit, current limitation, thermal, ESD and transients."

"The Smart eMT ECU doesn't require any TCU power to operate as it uses only the TCU ON/OFF pulses. The Smart eMT ECU is entirely isolated from the TCU (no physical electrical connection)."

"Eliminates TCU requests which are shorter than 250 msecs to protect the pump."

"The ECU protects all the components of the EMT system from the TCU up to the hydraulic actuator. The Early Warning System will even inform the driver of upcoming hydraulic issues."​

Errors logged and displayed by the unit:

1=Too long hydraulic pump run cycle
2= Hydraulic pump forced shutdown after too long run cycle
3= Hydraulic pump not activated while it was requested by the TCU
4= Hydraulic pump current sense is too low
5= Hydraulic pump current sense is too high
6= Hydraulic pump was running while it shouldn't (not requested by the TCU)
7= Hydraulic pump cycles too frequently
8=Significant vehicle battery voltage drop (in Expert mode only)​

I've got zero financial interest in Scuding Swiss or promoting its products, so I've got no dog in the fight other than to say that I've owned it for just under a year and don't think it's snake oil. When I went to install it, I had to carefully use a jeweler's screwdriver to gently pry the relay loose because it was fused (welded) into the socket. It had been replaced about 11 months earlier. I've put about double the miles on the car and two track days since putting this in compared to when the interval between putting in the new relay and replacing it with this unit. Out of curiosity, I opened up the panel to check to see if this had fused into the socket about 6 weeks ago. It hadn't; I could remove it with my fingers. I'm no EE, but to me a relay fusing into a socket isn't a desirable thing and this not fusing in that same socket tells me it's probably doing something good preventative maintenance-wise in that one respect alone. I also know from talking to around two dozen other guys who've installed this, most of them have encountered the same issue with the relay being fused into the socket. Lastly, what pushed me over the edge to get this when I did was the recommendation of a mechanic who installed it on his own F430. When I was talking to him, I made the same argument you are: The F1 is either working or it isn't; it's either got enough pressure to shift or it doesn't. "Just buy it, drive the car, and then get back to me," he said. To me, the difference is noticeable at speed and when going through the gears quickly in either direction. Buy it, don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. I was a doubter, too, until I actually put one in my car.

 

I fluid flush and a good bleed will give you better performance gains ( especially if been a while) ..even changing type of fluid can give you performance gains

 

That is why I recommend changing the relay every 2 years and monitor your system for timings is important. Usually a bad system ( leaking, bad accumulator, loose screws, bad solenoids) will cause the pump to cycle more and cause faster relay issues ( fusing). Due to the nature of the module I can see heat reduction ( no fusing happening.. so again I agree with mostly all the benefits you listed but not about performance gains in any way ..

 

F1 fluid changes are another benefit of the unit: The maintenance mode allows you to override the 30 second max run time so as to manually turn the pump on and run it continuously to bleed the system until you turn it off.

 

I feel like you're failing to account for this part:

"Our advanced firmware algorithms can even anticipate the hydraulic pressure needs (Advanced version only)."

In other words, it's predicting when the accumulator is below the optimal pressure before the TCU makes that call to kick the pump on; i.e., this will, when it determines appropriate, make a call to the pump in advance of the TCU making that call.

Like the electro-mechanical relay (or a lightbulb), the accumulator isn't binary in its condition of well-being. From new and unused, all of these things go from 100% prior to use to less than 100% upon the first use. So no accumulator that's been used is 100%. That doesn't mean all accumulators need to be replaced that are less than 100%. So is this ECU compensating for an accumulator that's, say, at 80% or 70% or 60%? Sure. I suppose the alternative would be to replace the accumulator more often instead of once every 10 years.

 

I have a hard time understanding this ( may i say believing it)
SO it will turn on without a trigger .. not sure I even want that .. impossible to predict when a pump will need to be turned on .. too many variables that this unit will not get the info for .. how many shifts ( different gears use more / less pressure ), ediff info ( on/off / speed of car)

at this point I will stop debating since you mentioned something that I find hard to understand/ don't have any insight to what it means .. ( I am a EE btw ) ..

I can only assume it develops a history of timings and starts pump based on that ( again not sure I want that )

Like I said nice module .. has benefits but will stand behind my statement of no performance gains

I don't understand your point on accumulator above but it is ok ..

 

Sorry, I was trying to run out the door as I wrote that. I was saying that the accumulator wears out with use (also with age) and that it’s like a relay or a lightbulb in that sense that it’s only got so many cycles in it. But lightbulbs and relays are binary, so a better analogy for how the accumulator fails (not always, but usually) is a candle in that it’s ability to hold a charge diminishes with use (and age). The TCU does not adapt to that. The Scuding unit compensates for it. I’m not saying one shouldn’t replace their accumulator when it’s not holding a charge for a reasonable duration, but this unit buys you some time on that, which isn’t something mentioned in their marketing materials. I suppose a valid question would be: Does the smart version making calls to the pump on its own put more wear-and-tear on the pump and accumulator? IDK the answer to that.


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I me to beat a dead horse .. but I still don't see how you / they make a claim that " The scuding unit compensates for a worn accumulator "

At this point .. i think we have gotten to a point of a place lets agree to disagree .. have a great weekend

 

I do want to reiterate that for those looking for a performance increase (more crisp shifts) .. replace the old fluid in there .. and if you want a fluid like moly central hydraulic will give you a better feel as well

Of course this is only if fluid is old

There was one chatter that changed the fluid on a 599 and felt a big difference

Fluid change( removing actuator) relearn and a check on PIS will yield very nice results

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I have had the advanced unit for about 2 years and it has been flawless. It only recently notified me of a slight malfunction of the F1 system in that the pump was shortly running with each shift up or down in a rapid sequence, but not running excessively while standing, or cruising. I would not have known this until much later and possibly had damaged the pump. This was only possible because I have the indicator light on the advanced unit and my wife asked why it was blinking with each shift, so there is a diagnostic benefit to the unit. Am replacing the accumulator this week, with fluid change. Performance wise, I can say it is smooth, responsive but that is about all I notice. I do think it may have saved me a pump replacement. FWIW.