Red Bull F1

Rumors are circulating that Red Bull/Porsche deal is most likely OFF. Red Bull are exploring other options and don’t completely shut down a continued collaboration with Honda beyond 2025 especially because Honda want to stay with Red Bull aswell and not buy out another team.

 

Porsche would be stupid to meddle with anything happening trackside....then again, we saw that with BMW-Williams-Sauber

 

Considering the influence Porsche would like to have on the team, it would be wise for RBR to keep the status quo and remain independent.

Porsche would bring them some gravitas and a fat paycheck, that's for sure - but it would also bring a lot of bureaucracy and big wigs wanting their way.

As it stands, RBR gets $100M from their title sponsor (whose founder is an huge fan of Hondas and Japanese culture in general) plus some millions more from all the big names they have plastered on their car - and I'm not even counting that sugared water thing, that might bring a couple thousand or so

All in all, I think Red Bull would be better (2026 and afterwards) if they got a special arrangement with Honda, like a mixed effort engine development by Red Bull and Honda in their RBPT facilities. Get a catchy name for said engine (or just label it "MUGEN") and that's it.

 

Yep, Porsche wanting a 50% take-over was maybe going too far for Red Bull, and one can understand that.
The Milton Keynes team has been doing alright so far being independent.
I was seeing Porsche as engine supplier and main sponsor, not as co-owner.

Interesting that both Porsche and Audi announced at the same time their entry in F1, and in the WEC.
Audi has apparently signed a 75% take-over of Sauber and cancelled its LMDh project.
In the other hand, Porsche has shown the 963 car heading for Le Mans, whilst its participation in F1 is meeting a stumbling block.

 

Honda (red bull power trains) 2022 engine revealed in Japanese TV ad.

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If true any extra benefits for RedBull need to be shut off. Honda were supposed to leave. Were RedBull supposed to be a full maker. Thats clearly not the case. RedBull are simply Honda and RedBull as of last year yes?? Messy this all is.

Never understood what Porsche REMOTELY need from F1. They need ZERO. Let Audi suffer and flounder as a team. I have zero doubt they are not going to stay on their ambitious schedule and Horner has warned them bluntly about that LOL!

 

+1

It looks like Honda and Red Bull have mislead the FIA to obtain an engine freeze. But no reaction from other engine builders apparently.

 

Red Bull: Porsche must decide if it wants to join F1 on our terms
Red Bull says the ball is now in Porsche’s court as to whether or not the German manufacturer wants to accept its terms to join forces in Formula 1.

 

This partnership looks on shaky ground now. If nothing is signed, I wonder what will come next.
Honda having never in fact left F1 may resume its work with Red Bull from 2026, in the open this time.
As for Porsche, they may review their interest in F1, perhaps look for another partner, or simply become engine supplier.

 

Porsche could now join up with Andretti.......

 

Since Andretti can't get an entry in F1, that looks doubtful, IMO.

Porsche may look for an already established team, instead of having to endure the growing pain of a new one.

That leaves McLaren, Williams or possibly Haas.

 

The hang up is rumored to be that Porsche wants to buy into RBT for 50%, so the controlling portion is what is being discussed

 

Why lol. Andretti as an entity is not in the same league as Porsche lol! Andretti is not an approved F1 team, Clearly F1 want a partner arrangement with an existing team, No matter — F1 offers Porsche what? Porsche is the last maker that needs F1 It’s predicted IPO valuation is quite large! Why not Porsche - Williams etc if not RedBull. Porsche -Aston but Lance would be in jeopardy lol!

 

Fact is Porsche and Red Bull are two powerful brands right now with big egos.
I don’t know how they could be partners 50/50.

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-porsches-red-bull-f1-plans-appear-dead-in-the-water/10364612/

Formula 1 / Dutch GP Analysis
Why Porsche's Red Bull F1 plans appear dead in the water
For months it had been an open secret that Red Bull and Porsche would be tying up for a joint Formula 1 venture for the new engine rules era in 2026.


By: Christian Nimmervoll
Co-author: Jonathan Noble
Sep 6, 2022, 1:45 PM
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There had been an original plan for a press announcement about the partnership to be made at the Austrian Grand Prix, and matters had progressed enough for Porsche to seek permission for a buy-in of the team with anti-cartel authorities.

But as fellow Volkswagen Group manufacturer Audi confirmed its entry from 2026 at the Belgian GP, the silence that emerged from the Porsche and Red Bull camps about their own plans hinted at there being some last minute bumps in the road.

And those obstacles now appear to have grown into solid brick walls, and point to any possibility of a joint F1 team venture between Red Bull and Porsche – which involved a sale of shares in the Milton Keynes F1 team – to be firmly off the table.

Red Bull motorsport advisor told website F1-Insider.com at Zandvoort quite definitively on Sunday night: “Porsche will not become a shareholder in us."

Autosport and sister website Motorsport-total.com has had it confirmed by several sources with good knowledge of the situation that Marko’s statement is the reality of the situation.

There will be no formal buy-in of the F1 team by Porsche as originally anticipated – and at best all that is available is a deal with Red Bull powertrains that could prompt a rebadging of the engines.

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Max Verstappen, Red Bull Racing

Photo by: Erik Junius

It is understood that behind the scenes at Porsche, there is great disappointment at the collapse of the deal. And also some debate about if the FIA’s approval of the engine regulations had been ratified earlier as originally planned, to open the door for the Austrian GP announcement, how different things could have been right now.

What appears to have happened in the wake of the rules delay – and the final tweaking of the 2026 regulations regarding new entrant concessions – is that Red Bull chiefs Christian Horner and Marko backed away from thinking that the 50-50 partnership with Porsche from 2026 was the best thing for the F1 squad.

Initially, it is understood that the negotiations were uncomplicated. But the longer the talks lasted, and the deeper they went into details of how things would work, the more Porsche managers sat at the table, and the greater the scepticism grew at the Milton Keynes camp.

With Red Bull knowing it has star driver Max Verstappen, ace designer Adrian Newey, and a super sharp racing team and car, what would there be to gain by sacrificing any of that for more external influence from a major car manufacturer?

Red Bull has never been stronger as a team than when it has been fully independent and able to react in an instant to whatever challenges are thrown at it.

The examples of major manufacturers when having their own teams - like Toyota, BMW and Honda – all point to more bureaucratic processes that only serve to hamper competitive ambitions, and a lack of agility that has made Red Bull such a force in F1.

That was a key point that Horner made in Zandvoort on Sunday night when asked whether or not the Porsche deal was dead in the water.

“We are an independent team,” he said. “That's always the way that we've operated in terms of being flexible and the ability to move quickly and efficiently. And I think that's part of the DNA of what Red Bull is.”

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Christian Horner, Red Bull F1 team principal

Photo by: Red Bull Content Pool

Horner was also clear last weekend that second thoughts from him and Marko about a Porsche involvement were not related to them being scared of losing their jobs and being replaced by managers from the German company.

“There are always wild rumours in this paddock,” said Horner about those theories.

“I recently made a commitment to this team for the long term. And indeed, any discussions that we've had have been contingent upon the management structure being the same, which has always been fully accepted.

“So I think I don't really need to comment on wild speculation.”

While Red Bull does not appear interested in sacrificing ownership of its F1 team, it’s a different matter where it comes to its new powertrain division: and that could offer an opportunity for a joint ownership structure to rebadge Red Bull’s engines as Porsche.

Horner added: “The powertrain is obviously a different challenge. And of course, if there was a partner to potentially look at working with on the powertrains, that would make logical sense.

“Our position is that obviously, the team is the biggest marketing asset globally for Red Bull. And why would we compromise that strategically for the long term?

“For 2026, we're fully committed, we've recruited some of the best talent in Formula 1 within Red Bull Powertrains, we've created a factory within 55 weeks, with fully commissioned dynos. We've built our first prototype engine for 2026 and run that prior to the summer break.”

What may have also been factored in Red Bull’s views on the Porsche project is the swift way its powertrains division has come together. That has delivered confidence in its own ability to build a top-level engine for 2026, whether it has an engine partner or not.

Red Bull no longer considers it out of the question to handle the entire engine project itself. The fact that the first Red Bull engine ran on one of the new AVL test benches in Milton Keynes shortly before the summer break has boosted the belief it can push on alone.

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Porsche F1 car render

Photo by: Camille Debastiani

While still without a battery, Horner stresses that Red Bull Powertrains is capable of designing and building a complete power unit in-house.

“The specialists we have cover the entire powertrain, including electrical and mechanical,” he declared.

“We're on a really exciting trajectory that isn't dependent on outside involvement or investment if there's strategically the right partner. And, of course, it's something that the group would be very interested in.”

But whether or not Porsche is open to such an idea is another question. It has been clear for months that the German car maker only wanted to come into F1 as a partner of a team, not just as an engine supplier.

With that plan appearing on the rocks at Red Bull, options are hugely limited elsewhere: which has cast question marks over whether or not the Porsche project will now go ahead at all.

For Porsche, this is a bitter setback. The Zuffenhausen-based company is currently preparing its IPO. A future entry into the booming billion-dollar Formula 1 business, which has never been as profitable for teams as it has been since the introduction of the budget cap (which will also apply to engines from 2026), would have been perfect. It now needs to think about what it does next.

For Red Bull, what Porsche does or does not do changes nothing in the short term. It looks almost certain to win this year’s world championship with Verstappen, it has Newey in place, a strong car for the new rules era and a Honda technical partnership until at the least the end of 2025 – and an extension not totally ruled out.

It also has the funding to keep developing its own engine and there are at least another three years for it to find a potential partner on that front if it wants to.

As Horner said: “One of our strengths is that Red Bull has always been a brand that thinks outside the box, a team that is never afraid to take on new challenges.

“First we got into F1 and now we're building an engine. The way we work is quite different, and it's part of our DNA to be able to make big things happen."

 

Since the demise of BRM, Red Bull must be the only "garagiste" that is also now an engine builder. I give them credit for that !!

That's a step that Lotus, McLaren or Williams have never taken in the past.

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/perez-verstappen-f1-floor-split-triggered-by-cost-reasons/10365387/

Perez, Verstappen differences in F1 floors due to cost reasons
Red Bull has explained that the decision to run different floors on Sergio Perez and Max Verstappen's Formula 1 cars has been partly triggered by cost reasons.



By:Jonathan Noble
Co-author:Luke Smith
Sep 8, 2022, 10:22 AM
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The Milton Keynes-based team's two drivers have diverged on floors since the Belgian Grand Prix last month.

Verstappen has run the floor that has worked so well for him in the early phase of the season, while Perez has been switched to a newer version that was trialled by both drivers in Austria and France but appeared to not deliver the step forward hoped for.

Perez revealed at Zandvoort last weekend that he would be sticking with the floor for a few more races, even though it appears not to be the optimum version and he has been battling to get on terms with his teammate for a little bit.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner has revealed that the floor decision has been forced on financial grounds, with the squad most likely unwilling to build another old-spec floor at this stage of the season amid the restrictions of the cost cap.

Most of the big F1 squads are struggling to stay below the cost cap limits, forcing them to be cautious about introducing new parts if they will not deliver good value for money.

Horner has equally played down suggestions that the floor is the reason why Perez has been so far behind Verstappen in pace terms in recent outings.

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Sergio Perez, Red Bull Racing RB18

Photo by: Erik Junius

"You're talking minuscule differences," he said. "It's predominantly been driven by the availability of spare parts. I think the difference is probably less than a tenth, or approximately maybe a tenth of a second.

"But Checo had a tricky race [at Zandvoort], and unfortunately getting jumped at the restart, and I think probably with hindsight, his tyre preference was the medium.

"I think with 20/20 vision, the soft at the end would have been probably a better tyre to attack. There's still decent points for him."


Perez was much more comfortable with the RB18 at the start of the season and has since found that, as it has been developed, it has shifted much more towards teammate Verstappen's liking.

"I think in the beginning, I was more comfortable," he explained last weekend. "I could feel like every time I came to a weekend in FP1, I was already easily happily with the balance, and things were coming natural.

"As the season progressed it feels like it has become harder and harder. Every weekend, I have to really go deep into the analysis. And yeah, I am not as comfortable as I was with the car before."

 

Now that they got their engine freeze, Red Bull says that they don't need anybody else, but in 2026 Dr. Marko could be begging to Renault again. That would be good comedy.

 

Stefano says all is well without Porsche!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-reveals-other-manufacturers-waiting-if-porsche-abandons-entry/10365435/

F1 reveals other manufacturers waiting as Porsche entry doubts grow
Formula 1 CEO Stefano Domenicali has revealed that other manufacturers are waiting in the wings to join the championship if Porsche’s plans do eventually fall through.

By: Jonathan Noble
Co-author: Roberto Chinchero
Sep 8, 2022, 12:15 PM
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Porsche had been expected to join forces with Red Bull from 2026, when new engine regulations are to come into force.

The initial idea was that Porsche would take a 50 percent shareholding in the Milton Keynes-based operation and would help development of the all-new engine that Red Bull is already working on through its powertrains division.

However, it has since emerged that, as Red Bull and Porsche worked through the detail of their plans to work together, hurdles popped up in terms of what both parties were willing to accept.


From Red Bull’s perspective, it questioned whether or not it wanted to sacrifice the independence and speed-of-response abilities that had proved a mainstay of its success in F1 to get involved with a large corporate entity.

Red Bull has since made clear that if the Porsche plan is to go ahead then it would have to be entirely on its terms, which has made a shareholding partnership now appear to be off.

The only option that appears to still be open is for Porsche to get involved with Red Bull’s powertrains division, although the German car manufacturer had been clear from the off it did not just want to be an engine supplier.

The uncertainty over Porsche’s entry means F1's hopes of attracting two new manufacturers for 2026 – with Audi having already confirmed its plan – may be scuppered for now.

However, Domenicali has revealed that there are other car makers sat on the sidelines waiting for the right opportunity who have kept a deliberately low profile.

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Porsche's planned 2026 F1 entry by buying into Red Bull Red Bull appears off.

Photo by: Erik Junius

Speaking about the Porsche situation ahead of the Italian Grand Prix, Domenicali said: “I can only say that Porsche is an integral part of the group that has discussed and continues to discuss the rules behind the new power unit that will come into force in 2026.

“We have all read comments from Porsche and Red Bull, and they will be them to decide what to do.

“But I believe that we as F1 are currently a very inclusive platform. There are also other manufacturers sitting at the table of the engineers who prefer not to come out into the open."

Domenicali reckoned that F1’s 2026 regulations were super attractive to manufacturers and that the sport was robust enough to survive the ebb and flow of car makers who came in and then left.

“For our part, we are not afraid,” he said. “In the last Concorde Agreement, we asked only one year's notice to teams or manufacturers who intend to abandon Formula 1, in the past the rules were much stricter.

“This change was included because we feel strong and robust enough to move forward anyway, and there are very good backup plans.

“Today, as never in the past, we have a mix of teams, manufacturers and engine suppliers of the highest level. If something changes we know what to do.”

 

Because Porsche can bring the leverage to buy a team (HAAS or Sauber).

 

Yep. It was a massive scam...

 

Official

Porsche says no agreement to enter in F1 with Red Bull.


AMuS

Porsche has officially called off the planned F1 entry in 2026 together with Red Bull: "The premise was always that a partnership would be based on an equal footing, which would include not only an engine partnership but also the team. This could not be achieved."

 

RedBull - Honda for 2026 then.

 

Sure but not RedBull. Porsche want an existing team that might have a chance of winning. Audi are in with Sauber or what used to be Sauber lol.

Time to UNFREEZE??????????

 

We don't know yet if Porsche has given up the idea of entering F1, or look for another opportunity, but time is running out.

I am wondering how long Red Bull will survive, given that Dieter Mateschizt and Helmut Marlo are ageing.

Who will take their succession? I thought that the partnership with Porsche would have taken care of that question.