512 BBi Hi Beams Problem

Took car out for a spin. Nice day and needed to get out a little (the car too ).

Pulling back into garage, I flipped on hi beams and nothing. Flipped lever up and down about 10X and just low beams work. This happened before where the hi beams didn't turn on and I moved lever a bunch of times and they woke up. Not this time!

Since these magnificent machines share much in common, can someone who's had this joy share what did the gremlins go after? I'd expect the turn signal stock / switch assy.... But before I pull the steering wheel and probe a bunch of wires to investigate, I thought I'd reach out here on f-chat to get some prior experiences. I don't hear any relays clicking, so I'd figure it's something upstream (electrically speaking)

Many - many thanks!

 

fuses are ok?

 

I think there are separate fuses for left and right high beams, so it's less likely to be a fuse issue. It's more likely to be a relay or the switch. Look for a relay labelled high beam control or relay for main beams.

If this relay location diagram matches your handbook, try swapping relays M & N. The relay may be getting tired.

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Steve will be along shortly to correct me

 

is the blue controle light in the instruments on when you switch to high beam?

 

All good suggestions - Thank you!

Not thinking a fuse (but always possible) because it was intermittent, and fuse blocks are pretty squeaky clean. First thing I addressed with car is clean all fuse blocks carefully and put in all new good quality fuses.

Swapping relays is always a good hunch. When the system works properly, don't you hear the 'click'? I don't hear anything. Since it was intermittent, would the energizing coil on the relay get flaky? I would think the contacts, but I'm never wrong . It's on my short list to check. Fingers crossed.

And very good observation to make regarding the blue indicator! Nope, no blue light. I'd suspect this juice comes from the stalk-switch on its way to the relay. So this points to stalk-switch?

On another car I've worked on, there was a small bit of flash on the stalk switch limiting the action and making the function flaky. Simple fix was clean the flash. I know the Ferrari quality on these switches is much higher, but wondering if anyone has seen a simple bug like this in there? 40 year old car and contacts need cleaning? ?

Thanks again!

 

I will question where you got that relay information (The relay diagram that you posted is for a 512BB and does not match the relays for a 512BBi OM. Also, relay M is badly named -- it should be called the "relay for all headlight bulbs and exterior running lights"). The 512BBi external lights are architected like other F of that era: roll the headlight stalk knob switch "on" = actuates the oddball ...006 relay which sends +12V to the pole of the headlight stalk switch on one contact, and +12V to operate the running lights on the other contact. Whether the low beams are "on", or the high beams are "on", is only controlled by the position of the Frankenstein switch contacts inside the headlight switch assembly -- i.e., if the low beams work, but the high beams don't = almost has to be a problem with the Frankenstein switch contacts inside the headlight switch assembly (if not a fuses/fuseblock issue -- which it could be since the fuseblock is downstream of the headlight stalk switch. Measure the voltage at the top of the high/main beam fuses relative to ground with the high beam stuff "on" : if +12V, but no high beams = headlight switch OK and fuseblock probably bad; if not +12V = headlight switch contacts probably bad).

One point here is that what we always call "parking lights" here in the US, are not what F calls parking lights -- F usually calls them "running lights", and the "parking light(s)" are a subset of the running lights.

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the detailed answer. Hopefully this saves me some time in the hunt. Low beams are good. Other lights seem fine AFAIK. You just move the stalk switch down to get the high beams and all the headlights go off. What's interesting is this problem has existed for a little while but was intermittent.

Just an observation on fuses and fuse block connections. IMHO, when fuses start to fail, the warning you 'may' get is the connection is poor and the lights would be dim. This is very binary. I'm looking forward to the next opp'y to work on her.

 

great

under all you mean also the low beam go off?
what about the rear lights when switch to high beam?

 

I didn't check tail lights specifically. As far as I know, it's just headlights all go out. When you lift the stalk switch up which should turn off all head lights.... Now I have two positions to do this. Up or down from center. As I type, this is making me think of a bad connection for the high beams at those heavy contacts in the stalk switch ?

 

when the switch is up then the rear light and also the parking light ( at europeam cars ) is on
switch in the middle: parking light and low beam
switch down: parking light, low beam and high beam ( on my car, but don´t know if this is original? it is a german car )

 

Very, very, very likely, but it could still be a fuseblock problem with the way that the headlights are wired:

In the middle position, all of the current goes thru a single contact in the headlight switch to the low beam filaments in the low beam bulbs thru the low beam fuses

In the down position, all of the current goes thru a different single contact in the headlight switch to the high beam filaments in the high beam bulbs and the high beam filaments in the low beam bulbs thru the high beam fuses.

Those voltage measurements should let you know for sure. The difficulty is that once a piece of dirt or non-conductive contact wear debris gets in between the switch contact faces it's like a little ball bearing and just "rolls" from one place to another and then back again so not easy to clear it by operating the stalk -- but I would try that a few hundred times before resorting to actually disassembling the steering wheel/switch to clean those contacts .

 

Soo, I'm hearing the job is no joy! Wonderful. I've done several of these on 308's, and I was suspecting more of the same. Not a 5min job, but not like the 14' heater hose that threads through the chassis. Of course, a quick fuse check, but those things still look pretty sanitary since I've done the work on them. Another fuse symptom (But of course, not always) is smell. If you're dropping current across a bad connection, contacts get hot. I'm bracing for the switch job.

I like your visual on debris rolling around under the contacts. Always curious to find the fault and get the "A-Hah!" moment.

Gotta fix this. It's kind of cool to see all 4 lights on up there!

 

That sounds right for the BBi as well. I seem to recall some function being different on these, like when you pull back on the stock it lights up just the high beams and not the hi filament of the lo beam bulbs. Which is different from moving stock switch down to hi-beam position.

 

Another Function Question for the BBi Headlights. Yes I have the OM, but it's not quite specific enough.


Regarding Stalk Position:
I - "Park lights & # number plate" [Everything that lights except headlights and interior light] Sound Right?

II - "Headlights up w lo-beam" [As above plus lo beam headlights] Also sound Right?

III - "Hi beam" [Just the two high beams - OR- the two hi beams + the high beam filaments in the lo beam lamps] ??

The flash function only works with the lights off? And it lights up the Cibie rectangular lights only?

I should have this ammo when I dive into this.


Many thanks!!!!

 

Your OM schematic shows:

III - "Hi beam" = two hi beams + the high beam filaments in the lo beam lamps

but that assumes that someone hasn't changed to some other type of bulbs with different filament configurations

Again, per your OM schematic assuming no one has modified the wiring/headlight bulbs:

Pull the flash switch when the headlight buckets are down = flashes the Cibie daylight flashing rectangular lights only

Pull the flash switch when low beams are "on" = high beam filaments in the low beam bulbs and high beam filaments in the high beam bulbs flash

Pull the flash switch when high beams are "on" = high beam filaments in the low beam bulbs and high beam filaments in the high beam bulbs (which all are already "on") glow a little bit brighter.

 

Thank you!
Thank you!

This sounds exactly like the 4-headlight Lancia I had. Especially the part where the high beam setting lights all 4 lamps and pulling back in that position makes it a bit brighter including the lo-beam filaments.

I'm a touch anxious 'cause I don't recall if it ever functioned like that. Let the games begin!

 

Update:

Well... I took the car out twice for a drive since having the problem and have not touched anything to do with the headlights.

I turned them on for the first drive and heard the obvious click of headlight relays when the lights popped up. I checked them, and sure enough. They were on and bright like nothing was wrong. All positions functioned normally.

? ? ?

The second drive was identical with respect to the headlights.


I'm thinking it's that stalk switch. Especially since I recall the relays were silent when the lights didn't turn on. My 308 had a similar issue, and I replaced the stalk switch. It was 'only' $300 iirc 30 years ago. Now the BBi switch is NLA, and if you can find one, it's thousands! Good news is it's not a terribly complicated piece of hardware, and rebuilding is fairly reasonable.

A project for a rainy day I guess.

How we love them so!

 

Do you have relays handling the hi current and the stalk switch just switching the relays? Makes the switch have less hi current.

 

Hi David, It's a combo of the relays AND the stalk taking hi current. They work in conjunction to make the circuit. Still wayy more simple than a BMW wiper pump circuit. (It goes through the engine ECU ?! )

Looking back at what Steve said... It makes sense the problem could be with the rolling switch since I did not hear relays when lights would not turn on. That's a little more finicky to address. I recall It pulls off, but it's a little scary. Good news is it can be looked at without pulling steering wheel and stalk switch.

fun..fun..fun..

 

The beautiful creature I gather doesn't want to be taken apart. I didn't do anything! Kind of like the aches and pains disappear when one is sitting at the doctor's office. Everything works now. All the headlights, with full brightness every time I act on the switches. All that happened is the car sat for about 1-1/2 months.

Wow!!!!! I'm thinking because I didn't hear the relays click when it wasn't functioning, the rotating stalk switch has something floating in there. Also, I believe it can be pulled off without taking much of anything else apart. However, the first problem was the hi beams...then all of the head lights, then it all works??

Maybe I should just expect to do a thorough service on the entire switch. The car is pushing 39 years old.

 

Last drive the lights worked perfect. I just took her out again on a nice clear evening on an open road, switched on the beams and no lights at all! Switched it back on lo and fortunately they came back on.

I brought it home and tried the lights again and got intermittent function with no sounds of relays clicking telling me it's the switch. I removed the steering wheel and hub and was able to get the lights to mis-behave. I then pushed on the backsides of the switch contact sliders and heard relays clicking with nice bright lights.

I thought I could surgically disassemble the switch in the car to work on it. V v v bad idea! It's a nice piece of hardware with a lot going on. The wires for the rotating switches on the ends of the stalk made it impossible to get in there enough to really do a nice job cleaning. I removed the switch from the car. That wire harness is a bear! Lots of finesse in the positioning of the huge bundle and 3 large connectors AND the two strategically placed wire ties. I'm sooo not looking forward to reproducing this to put it back together.

The pathology revealed the dust from 40 years has settled in the switch and mixed with the copper grease. This produces non-conductive dirt balls which roll around between the contacts. The headlight control is at the bottom so gets the brunt of contamination. The wiper control would be next but has much higher current going through with heavier contacts and springs. Lastly, the turn signal is at the top, so it fairs the best.

I'll be glad to put this little project to bed.

 

I had a similar issue on my bbi. It ended up being the fuse.

 

That's what I was hoping for, but not that lucky this time.

 

Cleaned up contacts / fresh contact grease -> Now it's much-much better than new!

(I still gotta take a night drive, but fingers crossed this is put to bed)

 

Late-late follow-up.

I'm certain all of my efforts like cleaning the switch, were not in vain, but the main problem was still there. The problem was finally tracked down to a faulty relay. I was able to pinpoint the problem with a DVM strategically placed and listening for the click (or lack of it) from the relay. After brand new high-quality relays were installed, I now trust my headlights again.

Whew!