The Purosangue Thread

You are a gentleman, sir. Let me say that I would never force you to change your view if you hate the Mondial/400. To each their own, as they say.

Please indulge me as I explain myself and provide some food for thought.

To me, a car is a mistake if it meets two criteria=
One, they don't sell.
Two, after the time (say 40 years) have passed, we look back and judge it poorly.

Sales
The Mondial and 365/400/412 series sold 6,000 and 2,800 units, respectively. Put another way, for the Mondial TWICE, as much as the subsequent 456 and 612. For the sedan, more than all 2+2 before it combined.

Value
As a species that largely places worth with monetary value, The current price is a window into ultimate truth. Prices have increased with both, with the Mondial t (selling for 132K this summer) and 412i (bid to 90K). I admit this is a small change; I mentioned not to toot any horn but to illustrate comps. The most expensive 308 (barring the fiberglass) I could find sold this year was 120K (less than the 'mistake' Mondial.) For something with a similar number of miles as the 412, right at par (~90K)

Now in terms of the future? I don't know. = I do know if I had the garage space, I would have bought a 412i manual any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, as they only created ~250.

I do have an unhealthy passion for Ferrari trivia.

Kind regards to you, sir, and I appreciate your time reading this.

Cheers

 

Yes and no.

My wife and I drive trucks/SUVs daily. That being said……irrespective of individual tastes:

The Cayennes/Macans look like Porsches.

The Bentayga looks like a Bentley.

The Cullinan looks like a Rolls.

The DBX looks like an Aston.

The Purosangue looks like an (insert here) ___________ JDM.

It’s not an ugly car, IMO it just has absolutely no wow factor and we both find it uninteresting. And she daily drives an F250 crew cab diesel.

(That shield placement though looks downright silly.)

In my opinion the PS should have been designed as an entry level Ferrari SUV (to attract new clients and as a throw away/obligatory EV) with the appropriate cost point and not half a million $ for a rather pedestrian looking SUV.

ps I hope people drive these, as if there is ever a car that doesn't deserve the moniker "garage queen," this is it.


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My California has been on unpaved roads rougher than that! [emoji2] I suspect your F12 also.

T

 

I was there as well Tuesday night and wholeheartedly agree with Marcel's take of the PS - basically a much improved, visually more attractive and more functional Lusso IMHO. The only negative I heard from several partners of owners there, including my wife, was if you have kids on board in the rear the cargo space is limited so no trips to Costco with them! The CF wheel arches shown below will be a must, but I will triple PPF them as they will be prone to damage in the same costco carpark. Also best gift ever received at a launch, and I have been to a few now. BTW I would hate to think what the total net worth of customers there that night would be valued at - have to be in the (many) billions....
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agree with all of that - the suspension/driver aids are no doubt advanced, but otherwise it’s a Lusso on stilts. And I prefer the looks of the Lusso!

 

I know, and I have said repeatedly, this isn’t an suv but does it feel/look like a crossover (merc gle coupé) in person or more car like (FF/lusso)?

 

I saw the car today. I admit, that it really looks much better than on the pics, but that was expected. But I still absolutely find nothing "Ferrari" in it and I will never will. It definitely doesn't look like an SUV, looks more like some kind of a crossover thing, but it is not a pretty car for sure. Here are some details:


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I don’t think the dealer is telling you to get lost. They have limited control over this process and if the situation is the same as over here in Europe they will have been told not to take any more orders and that they may get far fewer cars than they were expecting.
I think Ferrari were cautious to start with and encouraged dealers to market the car, but demand is far more than they expected, most of the TOP/VIP owners I know want the car so the dealers now have a problem with the rest of their clients.
I don’t think this is an “investment” car, but it will command a premium and always have more buyers than sellers.

For what it is worth I agree with Mr Massini that the car is a great success. It was always going to be difficult to make a four door Ferrari that wouldn’t offend purists and they have done a terrific job.


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Do you guys think that V6 version could have all goodies from V12, or they will make some changes, for example:

- Standard suspension compared to advanced one in V12
- Standard roof with option for CF and panorama
- Basic seats with option for ones showed on V12
- Plastic exterior trim with option for CF
- Smaller sized standard wheels
- Aluminium interior trim with option for CF

 

They have as good as told me to get lost for the next two years but in two years I am much less likely to be interested in this without the NA V12 which is what will be available then. The sad thing is that after waiting a year for the Portofino M to be built, neither my wife nor me is really that excited about it anymore. So Ferrari needs to do a better job with it's order book even on the low end, making people wait a year or longer for the car isn't the best way to promote the brand but they are the ones constantly sending surveys to fill out so they must know better than me.

I will keep driving my Ferrari and my wife hers but our next car probably won't be a Ferrari. Oh yeah, most of those top tier customers will flip it. I know one and he has bought 13 cars over the last few years. He has bought everything they made just about and gets them early, he flips them with just a few hundred miles on them. He lost a boatload on his 812 by selling it in early 2020 for a big loss but he got one of the first SF90 and Pista so he makes money flipping them. I know how this works for Ferrari, they need people to flip the cars for over MSRP because the dealers are the beneficiaries of a double sale on every car they flip.

 

I think with the Lusso V8, Ferrari gave us a clear window into their strategy for a "cheaper" version. Which is that they will not position it as a cheaper version but an alternative that offers something a bit different at a price which is slightly cheaper. The V8 version at the end of the day was positioned as a lighter more fun Lusso which was $40K (~13%) cheaper. The V6 (or V8) Hybrid version, if it happens (apparently they will go to full electric straight but I really hope and pray that it does happen), will not be a whole lot cheaper (my guess is $40-50k or 10-12% cheaper) and will come with all the same options/features as the V12 version and will be sold as maybe the more "fun" version of the PS.

 

How is this known? The only certainty I am aware is there will eventually be a full electric (BEV) Purosangue...

 

Maybe it was because the Lusso (V12) had very little interest, over its 5+ years of production, in EU, fewer than 2000 sold... Maybe Ferrari offered the Lusso-T with a V8 to lower the price in a failed attempt to increase sales... If the Purosangue is as successful in sales as currently being marketed there would not be the same concern, no need to 'increase sales' if Ferrari is able to keep order books full...

Bentley also did that, same reason, poor sales, tried a lower price point...
https://carsalesbase.com/smaller-engined-versions-top-end-cars/

 

I have waited a couple of days to let the design sink in before offering my humble opinion for what it’s worth:
Design:
The PS looks good with more surface detail than the Asian comparison. Does it look like a Ferrari- yes when it is examined through the SF90/296 lens. They have also done a great job hiding the bulk of the car. It does not have the angular vitality of the Urus which looks the Lambo part(although I think the same of the Audi/VW sister SUV- 95% of the same glam at a much lower price point). The PS is more low key which can be good (stealth) or bad(gets lost in the sea of SUVs out there) Score B+
Utility:
I like the interior but would like to see the rear space with the seats down- is it flat to place larger items in there? I don’t think so but I hope I am wrong.
Is it an SUV- no- it’s a super crossover.
To me an SUV needs have more utility and the PS (and most of the Uber SUVs out there) don’t have enough for my taste- I need a Defender, Wrangler or G wagon to get the utility I want from an SUV. The Range Rover does both but I’ve never warmed to its design. I want clearance for the snowy winter and traversing flooded roadways without having to worry if the air intake is going to suck in water. I don’t regularly go off road but the PS clearance allows only for the smoothest of dirt road unless you don’t mind regularly replacing all those carbon fiber bits and those rims and tires.The hotrod SUVs out there,Ferrari included, are merely the modern version of the station wagon and have replaced sedans as the favorite vehicle especially here in the USA. Call me old fashioned by I still love sedans and I favor MB S class as the best of the lot. Score C.
Performance:
It is no slouch based on the numbers we are given and I look forward to reviews regarding whether it drives, handles and sounds like a Ferrari(I anticipate it will). I’m a bit disappointed in the hp figure as I was hoping for something closer to 800 hp( Ferrari probably holding back for a special version in 2-3 years to make the debut PS obsolete) Eventually the hybrid version will be quicker. This thing was designed for on road use as the wheels and tires would get chewed up lickety split on uneven gravel and I’ve never met a NYC pothole which coddles low profile tires and rims. Score A-
Usability:
Great for trips to the market, soccer field or schools to show off and for a weekend jaunt to a resort or ski lodge for 4 people who travel light. As a DD? To expensive for most people out there as adding miles is the quickest path to depreciation. I know many on here couldn’t care less about depreciation but I consider daily drivers expendable vehicles and the PS isn’t priced for that segment. Perhaps the V6 hybrid version may be but knowing Ferrari, the price will still be eye watering. Score B
In summary:
Ferrari design has done an admirable job with the SUV 2 box design creating a more usable Lusso replacement with marginally better utility, performance and hopefully desirablility which should compete well against AM,Bentayga,Urus et al in the short term. Long term it will lose value unless it remains a garage queen for decades or one is lucky enough to get the special version when Ferrari doles it out to the “lucky few” in a few years
Final Score B IMHO



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Thanks for that, I would include, as compared to the previous Ferrari 4-seaters, the most significant new Utility/Usability is the greatly improved ingress/egress by having 4 doors...

And, close second, taller ride height that additionally eases ingress/egress

Those 2 together will help sell this car where previous Ferrari 4-seaters were sales deficient...

 

MODERATOR: Since this car now is officially launched, should someone create a page in the Models section instead of General Discussion?

 

Can confirm UK position on allocations : fewer cars expected in next 2/3 years than one might imagine; arriving Q3 2023 so miles off for most; decent customers upwards will get one in first 2.5/3 years (decent meaning upwards of say 5 cars history); deposits are in; there will be a further deposit to pay later on; Ferrari are approving the first couple of years allocation; customers to sign sell back forms in first 12 months (not enforceable as anti competitive but creates a moral obligation). I personally think that the price is absurd (£400k decent spec) but at the volumes expected there will be a lot of demand. Ferrari pricing very clever now for non special editions; there won’t be a big premium for long. It’s just not a £500k car (intrinsic value) with Cayenne GT Turbo, Urus and AM DBX 707 at circa £200k.

In addition people will want to use these, impact on value of high miles will be interesting.

Am sure there will an HGTE (!!) in 3/4 years like the AM DBX 707 as that engine has an easy 75BHP in hand. That will annoy early buyers.

 

A reasonable hypothesis. Except, it is currently and completely impossible for Ferrari to produce 3000 V12 engines per year, much less dedicate all V12 production over the next 18 months (or likely ever) to only be for the PS. Not to mention, for "3000" to be the "20%" number presumes Ferrari's annual production to be 15,000; however Ferrari has never achieved that level of output and certainly is not "on-track" to that level this calendar year, maybe next year...

Reference: 6706 total 6-month 2022 production (3455 Q1 + 3251 Q2):
https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/corporate/articles/second-quarter-2022-financial-results

Additionally, I doubt they have 6,000 PS orders, I believe it is closer to 2000 or maybe 2500 total PS orders at this time (as production of 1000 V12 PS annually correlates well with current production ability). Given current V12 production constraints, the ability to produce 3000 V12 PS by 2025 is reasonable. For a new engine (V8?V6?) to enter into PS production within the next 2 years seems impossible and I do not believe Ferrari will make such a vehicle with the V12 model having a 'full order book'. Remember, Ferrari (Galliera) said it was a surprise to fill the order book so quickly, that would seem to signal to me there was only the intention of having a V12 model (remember, the Lusso-T was not a "sales champion" vis-a-vis the Lusso-V12, so I do not believe Ferrari would make that mistake twice -- 2 engines for the same base vehicle is a huge commitment, one I doubt they had planned for, only the BEV version of which they obviously have high hopes - judging by the next factory currently under construction).

 

So there are 6,000 "Top" and VVIP clients then?

Or 6,000 Top, VVIP and VIP clients?

Or 6,000 people who responded to the Ferrari email and said "Yes?"

So exclusive by invitation, but not really by number?!?!?!

Do we really know what is the truth and what is being said by Ferrari to lead the ahem "clients" by the nose ring......as my father used to say "becco" in Italiano?

 

Additional thought regarding what is 'driving' the current record Ferrari production?

It seems to be the F8 is a leading cause, and, once F8 production stops (which is ramping down now...) perhaps Ferrari's annual production in 2023 will be substantially less, after all, they obviously are having a great amount of difficulty in producing the 296 "in volume" and the Portofino, and 812GTS are currently ramping down. Without a "high volume production car(s)", how will Ferrari maintain its production momentum? The Roma Coupe + Spider?