Hamilton deserves more respect

I think you ran out of arguments long time ago; being partisan you restrict your vision, but that's OK.

You deal with opinions (those are by nature volatile), and you like yours to prevail.

I am not emotionally attached to any team or driver, being only interested in facts. Bye, bye ...

 

Not difficult at all - that is true. AFAIK I have never denied that.

But again, this is a diversion from the real discussion in this thread: is Hamilton one of the all time greats in F1 (or the GOAT) or not?

My argument is that this results in all those years where he had a superior car and preferential treatment prove NOTHING and that his results in the mid field car of early 2022 prove a LOT.

 

And what exactly do you mean with the phrase "being partisan"? Yes I am Dutch. But my sympathy goes to Ferrari and I cheer for them - not primarily to Verstappen (or Nick de Vries, for that matter) only because they are also Dutch.

Please stop using these vague suggestions and keep this discussion clean.

 

So I see that you pick and choose parts of drivers career that you want to focus on. You pick one year of a drivers career and base an opinion about it. Do as you feel. But I can do the same about multiple past champions. Schumacher couldn't win one legit race in 2005 in a car above midfield. Alonso and Verstappen never won in a midfield car. But I don't judge that way. I look at a drivers full career instead of one season as you do.

 

Your username set the tone. No idea you were Dutch.

I didn't make any suggestion and I did stay civil, so you can get off your high horses.

 

One year in a dominant car proves nothing how good a driver actually is. One year in a midfield (or worse) car does, this can build or destroy a reputation.

For built reputations, see Gilles Villeneuve in 1979 or Michael Schumacher in 1996.

For destroyed reputations, see Damon Hill (1997-1999) or Jacques Villeneuve (1999 - 2006).

 

This thread is useless Just a waste of time debating here.

Hamilton has his 7 Formula1 WDC titles, and 2 or more barely slipped out of his hands - so as a whole he had so many successful seasons in a F1 car. A dream career!

I was pissed off when Massa lost his title chance to Hamilton on the last lap in Brazil, but yea ... such is life.
Hamilton won, points are points.

 

See you still choosing certain years to focus on. And that is only your logic. I believe a great driver will shine in ANY car. Thats why Hamilton is the only driver to win every wet race 5 years straight at one point. I along with F1 teams look at how a driver performs in ANY car. That where our logic differs. Hamilton never had a problem getting a top seat all his career. This shows F1 teams logic differs from your logic of Hamiltons reputation.

 

And what does the performance of Hamilton in the 2022 Mercedes tell you? Is he really shining?? He is not even outperforming his team mate.

 

? Look at the history of Hamiltons teammate domination, oh wait I forgot you only judge a driver by one season. Hamilton has multiple podiums, and is outqualifying Russell. Actually Russell and Hamilton is shining in that Mercedes.
Your logic will lose every time against mine and F1 teams.

 

Any discussion with you makes no sense as you keep on twisting my words.

Of course I can now start explaining that I have never said in the past (or will say in the future) that I judge a driver on one year only. What I said was that one year in a midfield car (or worse) can built or destroy a reputation (see post #5279).

But what is the point? Either you seem not to catch the gist of my arguments or we live in different universes

 

bingo

 

Birds of a feather flock together, it seems, even on forums.

 

Et tu, billy boy.

 

No, you specifically brought up 2022 season (and you are CLEARLY judging Hamilton) AFTER saying one season doesn't matter...unless it involves multiple seasons by Damon Hill and J. Villeneuve, which has NOTHING to do with this. Pick a story and stay with it.

 

Correct, I am judging Hamilton especially on the 2022 season - finally a year in a midfield car so he can show his real merit. And my verdict is not positive.

Ok, you are another one with difficulties in comprehensive reading.... Please read post #5279 again - slowly this time.

My argument was that just one year in a midfield car can built or destroy a reputation. Jacques Villeneuve's reputation was shot after 1999 but pick any other year from 2000 till 2006 - these years were increasingly damaging. Same story for Damon Hill. It only takes 1 year to destroy a reputation, multiple bad years only make matters worse. Sounds obvious but let me spell it out for you....

 

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. Whether or not it is factually defendable is another story all together.

The F1 world is a brutal environment and I think it most telling that people truly in the know (and with a lot to gain by trashing Hamilton) are praising his performance this season.

 

Perhaps. As an outsider I can only judge from cold facts as qualifying / race results, and things I can observe myself during races, like a lot of whining and a remarkable lack of enthusiasm when things are not going well. It seems than when the car is improving also Hamilton's effort is improving - certainly not an image of a true leader taking the lead and inspiring his team to improve the situation.

 

"This guy can only drive from the front with the fastest car..." or words to that effect from someonewho would know. Same thing we've been saying here for years.

 

^^^
Quoting Alonso doesn't really make a case...

 

Again, what do Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill have to do with anything? Neither can hold a candle to Hamilton in terms of results. Are you suggesting that those 2 had the same status/reputation as Hamilton does and then damaged their status?
OR
Perhaps you can "spell it out for me"...

 

Ah yes nothing like an off-hand quote from a hot headed Latin said in the heat of the moment to make one's argument.

 

When I make offhand quotes in the heat of the moment in an area in which I am an expert, they are more likely to be bitingly accurate than otherwise.

If you think that wasn't in his mind for a long time before coming out his mouth, you're delusional. Many of us saw it for years and said exactly the same thing long before Alonso. Go back and look at my posts. Lewis has no racecraft other than usually not squandering a huge advantage, unless it's to Nico Rosberg.

 

Since your are asking....

True greatness doesn't become apparent when driving a dominant car. It becomes clear when driving a midfield or poor car.

Jacques Villeneuve started in F1 in a dominant team (Williams), had 2 great seasons and became WDC. Then he moved to a midfield team, and it became clear that it was the car / team that was the basis of his success and not the driver.

About the same story for Damon Hill: after becoming WDC in a Williams when this was the best car, he was sacked and moved to a midfield team where he proved to be an only average F1 driver.

Now for Lewis Hamilton. After a long period at very good (McLaren) and even dominant (Mercedes) teams, he started this season in a midfield car.

I leave it to you to fill in the rest.

 

A hot headed Latin who has an axe to grind because he never recovered mentally from the humiliation he suffered from a rookie years ago.