Budget Cap Enforcement

Absolutely right !
There were in the past several unspoken "divisions" in F1:
the 1st division for teams that had unlimited resources (like $400M+), Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari,
the 2nd division for those up to $250M, McLaren, Aston, Alpine, Alpha Tauri,
and the 3rd division for those around or below $100M, Haas, Williams, Alfa Romeo

The budget cap at around $150M has given some the impression that every team would be in the top league from now on.
It's total delusion, some teams still have behind them a powerful structure.
They don't necessarily need to spend more, but more wisely.
Others will still struggle to find the finance to reach 2/3 of the budget limit.

 

If a new

This isn't Indycar. Not all cars are created equal. That's what makes F1, F1.

If the 2nd and 3rd tier teams want to win championships, they need do what Sauber did: get a big factory to back them. Build your team up and score consistently, and try to be the best of the non-factory teams. Attract a big buyer, and sell that hotcake to the highest bidder. Porsche would gladly buy Aston or Williams, and Honda would gladly buy Alpha.

 

Porsche are not entering F1. They withdrew their interest in the series per press yesterday.

Smart I say. They need zero from F1 and it’s ridiculous political environment lol. The budget mess going on as an example. Porsche needs that why?? LOL!!

 

Or because F1 keep insisting it doesnt need any more teams, and after the redbull deal fell through, Its options have gone.

 

Sure but other teams could use a Porsche strong partner. But Porsche does not at all NEED F1 lol. VW group have Audi in F1. Nothing stops Audi from coordinating with Porsche!

 

F1 doesn't need Porsche either. It has Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, and Honda as reliable partners.

F1 got one VW member in Audi, and that's really all they needed. Frankly, it never made sense for two VW companies to work against each other in F1. It makes far more sense for Audi to do F1, and Porsche to do LMH.

 

good, nobody needs them....

 

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"Spend more money, and you'll go faster!"

Someone explain to me how despite spending 134 million more than Red Bull, Ferrari scored 70 fewer points in 2016.

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Porsche's F-1 heritage is not good, one win, and the McLaren TAG Porsche years... but not much was really made from that. Porsche's world is endurance racing. that is where they made their name, that is where they need to be. Audi - at least has Auto Union Heritage... kind of tied up with the Nazi's but besides the point.... VW s competitors with MB - I guess is makes sense. frankly either Lamborghini or Bugatti makes more F-1 sense...

 

More expensive to develop in-house a power Unit I guess.

 

IF it happens that Red Bull's violation of the budget cap is only minor/procedural ... or non-existent ... what should Mercedes fine or punishment be, for starting and spreading very public, unfounded, defamatory rumors against a competitor? How many points should be deducted from Mercedes 2021 constructor results? Should they be disqualified from participation in 2022?

 

—Ferrari: Minor F1 cost cap breach worth 0.5s per lap
Ferrari says the FIA needs to take Formula 1 cost cap breaches seriously because even a minor overspend could be worth as much as 0.5 seconds per lap.—

Also Ferrari and Mercedes were on record about paddock rumors - Ban Ferrari as well???

—Nevertheless, both Mercedes boss Toto Wolffand Ferrari sporting director Laurent Mekies said in Singapore that it is an "open secret" that two teams breached the budget cap last year -- one by a small amount and one by a more significant amount. Those comments were backed up by several sources in the paddock, but for many there was still a wait-and-see approach to Wednesday's news from the FIA.—

 

Pick a number, add a ''could be'', sell it to the media as a non-fact.

 

I'm pretty sure the powertrains fall under a different entity...

 

Can I ask why it's so hard for you to concede that Red Bull spent more this year than Ferrari, when the technical record disclosure reflects them clearly doing so? You don't take issue with the idea that Mercedes is ignoring the cost cap.

FTR, I like Red Bull. They're a real race team. I'll take them any day over Mercedes. But being a fan doesn't make me blind. When Ferrari were caught cheating the fuel flow sensors in 19', even as a fan I conceded to other fans they had been coloring outside the lines.

And no, I don't buy the FIA saying they *only* overspent by $1 million, anymore than I buy the slap on the wrist Mercedes got for their illegal in season tests, or the non-disclosure settlement reached with Ferrari in 19'.

 

I take issue with the "a minor breach is worth half a second". Based on what?

The argument is what Red Bull (and others) spend last year, not this season.

Has Red Bull brought more updates this season than Ferrari? Yes. But not all upgrades cost the same. A new rear wing cost much more to develop and produce than say, a little winglet or cut in the floor. I believe for this season Ferrari and Red Bull are very close in what they've spend, crashes included.

I believe Mercedes has spend a good chunk more than Ferrari and Red Bull so far this season. Mclaren also shouldn't be underestimated. They just produced another big update for singapore!

 

1. I think last year was an entirely different story than this year. Mercedes only really updated at Silverstone, plus a tweak in Russia. Meanwhile, Red Bull brought minor changes in Monaco, Baku, Russia, France, and Belgium, in addition to the big update in Silverstone. Mercedes simply didn't think they needed update, and they were proven massively wrong on the track. When they realized their mistake, it was too late to start development.

2. This year is a different. It's not just that Red Bull and Mercedes bring the typical big packages to Silverstone and Bahrain. It's that they can bring new parts almost every single weekend, when Ferrari can't afford to do that. The suggestion that RBR and Mercedes are 'just better' is not a sufficient answer. Manufacturing costs are going to be comparable between the teams, and the idea that RBR, Mercedes, and McLaren can do two and three times the amount of development under the same budget is just not believable.

3. I blame Ferrari, not RBR and Mercedes. Ferrari got cocky that their base car would be sufficient to compete for the championship, as Mercedes believed last year, and booooooy, where they wrong. That's the fundamental issue. Ferrari knew porposing needed to be solved, and instead of throwing kitchen sink at the problem like Mercedes did, they thought they could get RBR in trouble for overspending on what was already a superior RB18.

Mercedes realized they needed to get out the development warchest for their car, and let the accountants worry about the spending returns, and I don't blame them. Had Ferrari done the same, Leclerc would be near Verstappen's point tally, and had 6 or 7 wins under his belt.

 

1) But this whole thread is about last year, not 2022.

2) Toby Gruner missed several updates in his tweets. Ferrari can play it cute with "oh we don't have the money for this" every time they don't bring an update, but that's just words. Ferrari have upgraded significant parts quite a few times this season. Toby missed out the new diffusers in Australia, Spain and Silverstone for starters.

3) Yes I agree, in part. Ferrari was too complacent thinking they had plenty in the tank. Adjusting engine power as Red Bull got faster was a great strategy right until the engine started ****ting itself every other race. And the car did look great. Very balanced, quick on every track, with Red Bull close but not right there. It was only when RBR understood their car better that Ferrari came under pressure and been making many mistakes. The only real mistake RBR has made so far this season has been in Singapore. Toto's TD39 was the final nail in the coffin for Ferrari's championship aspirations (at this point they where already far back), and the car became a lot slower, now fighting tooth and nail with Mercedes rather than Red Bull. Ferrari went from claiming that they could win the last 10 races of the season to having claimed none and now bandwagoning on Toto's words in the hope to get RBR kicked out.

 

Only really based on Binotto’s belief, for what that’s worth.

Conversely, even a one dollar lottery ticket can yield a $100 return. There isn’t a perfectly linear correlation between performance gains and money invested. There’s always the possibility that another million invested in development hits diminishing returns or is just simply a boondoggle, but with such a small cap, I don’t think that’s likely. Whether the difference yields a half of a second, well, only Red Bull knows that answer.

 

If Red Bull really feels injured by the accusation, they can always take Mercedes to court for difamation?

Mutual accusations are now everyday occurence in F1 unfortunately, and the Red Bull camp is not innocent either.

It seems that nobody can keep his mouth shut nowadays

 

Exactly. It's something impossible to prove or compare...Using Binotto's logic, all teams should then be as fast as each other because they all have the same budget...Or looking back on previous years, RBR/Ferrari/Mercedes should have been 20 seconds clear of the likes of Williams (though technically we haven't discussed if Latifi is such an amazing driver that he actually brings 18 seconds to the team).

 

1. Toby is pretty good. IDK what you're talking about regarding Australia. That diffuser was only raced by Spain, and not used that weekend. And Toby accurately reported the new floors in Silverstone and Spain.

2. Regardless, RBR did spend more than Mercedes last year, and Ferrari this year. This is an obvious and simple fact. I don't care what accounting magic has been worked with the FIA. Binotto is a lot of things, but he's not stupid in regards to development costs.

In any event, I think Ferrari realized early on that they had fundamental design issues creating porposing. They'll have to totally redesign the packaging of the transmission and rear suspension to eliminate it completely.

 

If Red Bull did in fact exceed the cost cap, there needs to be punishment. What is the point of having rules if they are not being followed and one team gains an advantage? There needs to be a level playing field, and slimy conduct taints the sport.

 

Agreed. The only caveat being, as already discussed, this whole accusation is difficult to prove. It's just too easy to argue so many categories and directions and flavors of expenses ...