512BB maintenance invoice: $133,000

This car sold on BAT recently: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-ferrari-512-bb-4/

Some invoices were included among the pics. I am attaching two here. I'm counting them as one invoice because only 11 months and zero miles passed between them. They total $133,000 USD after sales tax.

This obviously wasn't just a service. It's closer to a full mechanical restoration, and the car has 97,000 miles on it, so I'm not suggesting anyone overcharged or overpaid. I just have some questions, for my own education.

1. "Timing belt service" = $16,740 of labour (parts extra) ... is that typical for a BB? It appears from the invoice that the $16k covered only the usual major service items. Seems about double a Testarossa. Is that right, or is it likely that this figure includes things the shop didn't bother to itemize?
   
   
2. "Rebuild suspension, install new bushings, balljoints, tie rod ends and link bushings." Doesn't include replating anything, cleaning anything, or rebuilding the shocks. Labour: $9,004 (parts extra). For reelz? Nine grand of labour for bushings, ball joints and tie rod ends? Lots of other suspension work was done, but itemized separately. Normal?
   
   
3. "High performance coolant" ... $436 ??
   
   
4. Bolt M10x1.25x65 ... $47.34. AW Italian has them for $10, but they do sell at much higher prices elsewhere. What's up with that? Either a) it's important to have the more expensive bolts and an ignorant owner trying to save some bucks could make a costly mistake, or b) some seemingly reputable shops will sell you a dozen $47 bolts where $10 bolts will do. One of those must be true. Which one is it?

Nice car, though, right?

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it is also done a complete engine repair ( custom piston kit )

 

Good day Jay,

Sadly, there are no details pertaining to the timing belt service and so it is all speculative as to how the shop arrived at $16.7K USD number. What I can tell you is the labor to remove and reinstall a carbed boxer engine is approx 14 or so hours total (about 6-7 hours to remove and install). Timing belts, tensioners, gaskets, water pump seals, etc is somewhat inexpensive even from a dealer. "Just" doing a timing belt service (including replacing the water pump seals) is significantly less that $16.7K USD. Also, it is interesting that the shop billed $810 US separately for the valve adjustment, as one would think that checking and adjusting valve clearance (and timing) is done when replacing the timing belts (this is what I do on my car). To answer your question, No $16.7K USD is not a typical charge for a timing belt service and so more details are needed to determine how this number was generated.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Look up whatever the Italian word is for "mordida" -- that is what happened here.

 

Same. Then they went and replaced all the valves anyway…?

I also notice that on the second invoice they threw away the $436 worth of 11-month old, never-used “high performance coolant” and replaced it with Evans at half the price.

What coolant costs 2x Evans!?

Maybe the guy is lucky they didn’t try to sell him a crate of this stuff…

 

Good day Jay,

Unfortunately, we do not have all of the details and so who knows what transpired that resulted in these charges. I have had projects where the customer had me change a design 13 times before they decided that the first one I recommended was the best solution... but I billed accordingly. That said, on the surface it does not reflect well on the shop doing the work. If I was the shop owner, I would details these charges more formally so that anyone looking in could assess if the charges seem reasonable and in fact I do this with my own business.

This is not the first time that some shop bills raise eyebrows. In fact I think this is one of the reasons that Boxers' have a reputation for being extremely expensive to maintain. In my experience the ownership cost of my BB has been about the same as the 308's I have had. There are some Boxer parts that are really expensive, but in general these are not high failure items and so the need to replace is infrequent. Working on my own car I can appreciate the time and skill it takes to do things, but at times some of the billable hours I have seen have been astounding:

- One boxer owner was charged 10 hours to remove the rear clam... when it only takes about 20 minutes.

- A boxer owner has said that a boxer removal takes 20-25 hours + the same to reinstall... when I have done it now three times and the time was 6-7 hours or so... and about the same to reinstall

- carb rebuild kit installation (not restoration), tuning, etc over $12K and then another $4K later for adjustments. As a frame of reference, it takes me about 40 minutes (say an hour) total to remove all 4 carbs... and about 1-2 hours per carb to detail, clean, and replace the various bits. This is working at a relaxed pace as well.

- a boxer visited a shop for a tune up and was sold a complete engine rebuild

- $35K+ for suspension rebuild (new bushings, replating items as needed, rebuild/replace shocks, etc). Yes, boxer suspension bits are not cheap and are a bit of a pain to do... but for $35K+ I could easily do a number of boxers for that amount.

... etc

Returning back to the car in question's invoice... since I was never presented at the time of the service, etc I cannot say for certain what transpired. But... at the magnitude cost of the various services, one has to question them.

Cheers,

Sam

 

I sold this BB, this is one of 5 BB's I will have for offer in the next few weeks. The prior owner spent quite a bit and all the work was done to a very high standard. (not just a service) but a mechanical restoration. It has Evans coolant which $55 dollars a gallon. I can't be mixed with anything, so flushing the system would require a a few gallons and an extra to have.

 

But, If he bought the blinker fluid on Bat it would cost 2x.

 

Good day,

Understood. However, having a line item that says "Timing Belt Service: $16.7K" is pretty matter of fact and does not convey a mechanical restoration of these items... and also what items were restored specific to this service? From an outside perspective it does raise questions. I can fully understand that it is no fun, time consuming, and a pain to document things, but given that such documents could be misconstrued by others it makes sense to add sufficient detail to mitigate such misinterpretations. Otherwise questions will be raised... which is what we have now.

Cheers,

Sam

 

The prior owner had the car in for a belt service during the start of the Covid lock down. After initial service he decided to have the whole car redone. He was not sure if the car had the original valves etc. He decided to have the whole car was stripped down and gone through front to rear. Every shop has individual billing methods. I have seen some shops charge the customer for phone time etc. The shop that did the job is well known and is in the Tri state area. I just had a client purchase a car in Italy a few weeks ago, I had him send the car in for service and Classiche while the car was still in Italy. The prices are substantially less. Thanks.

 

Good day,

Understood. However, all that I have said and others have commented is that the services listed on the invoices raises eyebrows .... nothing more, nothing less. There is no doubt that one will find shops that charge more and some may charge less... that is how it goes.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Most invoices that i have received contained a comments section where all of the details concerning the service performed can be located. This helps make sense out of all of the line items.

 

Highest single bill I’ve seen is $94k on a 355……no drivetrain work or restoration involved. For some reason, I no longer was interested in a 355.

 

My only question is why pick this shop? Do they have a reputation for servicing BBs?

 

Classic coach is (at least was) one of the best shops to bring older cars ..the head mechanic Carlos (if still there ) has been working there since i can remember and specializes in the older vehicles...

They are also an authorized Ferrari paint shop ( they fix cars right off the boat before getting delivered)

They are a excellent restoration shop ..at any point they will have millions, value wise of cars being restored

They have Ferrari dealerships in Florida

They have a racing division for weekend warriors

They have and always had a reputation of being very expensive but if you go there you will never see any spots empty ..



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$16K doesn't sound like an outrageous number to me for an engine-out service on a BB these days. Especially if it includes a few "while you're in there"'s, and given the age of these cars, it always does.

 

somebody got their face ripped off

 

Good day,

Like most things, the devil is in the details. An engine out service means different things to different people. This is why it is always best to detail and/or document what was done during these services. if not, then the shop or the person can suffer the consequences of limited documentation.

Cheers,

Sam

 

The while you're there was on top of that.

Out of everything, the oil filters were very reasonably priced.

https://ferraris-online.com/restorations-in-reverse/

 

You guys, this service was cover on this site by the owner. Anyway to me someone got one he'll of a BB512. If I had the money I would have bought it. Great color, carbed car, and fully sorted. I remember convincing him to do the Newman diff and prodding him to do SS exhaust valves. I though he was keeping it forever.

 

It's those "while-you're-in-there" items that are just huge time sinks. I appreciate when the care is given to put these mechanical sculptures back to their former glory.

ie. You go in the engine bay to do a simple task, you notice that xyz wobbles, the bracket is loose, the bolts just need to be snugged, you try and tighten, and they won't budge - - - the episode turns into a cluster and only 3 short hours later, it's corrected - whew!

I bet it looks quite nice.

 

Here's 50 M10x1.25x65mm DIN 912 bolts for $10

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174756334658?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=AYJSbAdpFYWM1PXo1TMKQOXaXa_LLhXF3UThVeUcBZwdv-5SZ4IqS4Ft2FI

 

Google Earth Link

https://earth.app.goo.gl/cTTcP1

looks like a dump.

big picture….
For 133kusd, you can get a nice TR.
For 133kusd, I’d expect a full mechanical restoration…. full engine/ tranny/ suspension/ clutch etc etc - including plating etc.

exorbitant pricing

.

 

to let this all do you need more than 133k, but it depends how deep you will go into the engine and the gearbox. and when plating it needs also new bushings. but when you are still "in" then just do all

 

Go to the listing https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-ferrari-512-bb-4/

Start at Picture #282 on. It did have a full mechanical restoration. The shop has been around a long time. The work that was done was excellent.

If you have any good leads for clean Testarossa's please share. Thanks!