They told me a limited production in 2023, and full 2024 and 2025 max. So might be 2 years, after that might be full electric, who knows
I think a lot will depend on the outcome of the euro 7 new regulations. They were meant to be very strict initially but supposedly there are now going to be a lot less drastic so maybe that will allow Ferrari to change their plans wrt to the na v12 or maybe it will have no impact and their roadmap is already decided…who knows
Really hoping this is the case but does the forum have any real belief that these people are somehow in the know rather than just speculating?
I personally have no belief. All dealers i spoke to althought thought it was going to be na v12 didn’t seem to have strong convictions. Someone else above said his dealer just told him the car was already ready and was likely going to be v8 hybrid. Day355 said initially na v12 with assitance and more recently na v12 no assist….. if someone has a strong conviction i’d loveto hear it although i would suspect that person would be taking a huge personal risk wrt his relationships with Ferrari.
Project F167 was originally (2017) positioned as the 812 successor. To be a successor presumes it to be powered by a V12 (unclear if hybrid or not but no test mule has an electric warning label). Every F167 test mule video sounds like a V12 (not a V8). Further, with the Roma (V8) and Portofino (V8), what sense is there to have another front engine (yes, 'mid engine but at front axle') V8, especially as the Roma remains in production (and Roma spider is not yet revealed so Roma production will continue for at least 2 more years). (Portofino remains in production but is no longer orderable). I have no insider knowledge, but I will state my belief that F167 is V12, non-hybrid. My only hesitation is when it will be revealed, or not revealed, will it be in 12 months? Later? never? I presume with the disappearance of Euro 7 regulations, there is no regulatory interference with the F167 being revealed anytime in the next several years.
I agree in principle it would make no sense to have another front engine with a v8 hybrid. This all depends on what Ferrari’s plans are. How long they plan to have the roma, sf90 in production and if/when that 812 replacement might be released. Euro 7 is meant to be published on november 9 actually so maybe that will provide some visibility although I would think Ferrari already planned their future models at this stage and are unlikely to change their plans based on euro 7 at the of 2022. Separately i still struggle to see how they could announce another 800 or so hp v12 based on the current 6.5L and produce it for a further 6/7 years while competition - lambo - are coming up with a v12 hybrid approaching 1000+hp. We all know that from ferrari’s standpoint competition matters since a large pool of buyers care about the latest fastest / more powerful as we could see with the sf90 when it got revealed.
Well if Ferrari 'must' keep pace with Lamborghini's V12+hybrid system, maybe Ferrari will wait for that car to be released to see what is actually is...but then again, long ago I recall something about the F167 being a more relaxed car since it will not be the top model (that remains the SF90) No rumors as to what Lamborghin's car will be (confirmed V12+hybrid): https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38869268/lamborghini-future-details/ (...)Then 2023 will mark the start of Lamborghini’s electrification plans, with Winkelmann revealing that the Aventador replacement will arrive that year sporting a plug-in-hybrid setup with a new V-12 engine. For Ferrari to make the F167 with 1000HP+, it must have AWD, I just do not see that happening as Ferrari has no history of AWD performance systems that remain engaged all the way to the top speed (not the FF/Lusso or SF90!) But, who knows!?!
For the new 812 I don´t think Ferrari cares about what Lamborghini does with the Aventador successor just like they didn´t care about the Diablo when they made the 550 Maranello, those are different markets. For the "fast hybrid AWD thing" they made the SF90, although it´s a V8.
Yeah, really don't care about Lamborghini, this is the last chance saloon for an NA V12. We'll have the rest of our lives to enjoy hybrid/electric.
Does anybody know when the euro 7 rules are being published? My understanding is that it was meant to be today Nov 9th
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-09/eu-to-propose-rules-for-last-generation-of-combustion-engines
EV Battery Production Problems: how lithium is harvested: how copper is mined: nickel shortage: nickel production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad8Zot71_cY recycle issues: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Sj5hI_IiQ7A
All of that is super one-sided. The embedded energy in producing gasoline is insane. The fact that we all grew up with it and there is established infrastructure supporting it doesn't really mean that EVs are "dirtier" as an alternative. Lithium is one of the most abundant metals on Earth and we can mine it with minimal impact on the environment just fine. Same with other battery components. However, there is not much we can do to improve emissions of the industrial oil complex at this point. EV motors are over 95% efficient at converting energy into motion. That's 3x better than any gasoline or diesel engine. The rest, as Tesla is showing, is all semantics. New dry electrode batteries from Tesla (4680) that are coming next year will put many auto OEMs out of business in the next 5 years. If Tesla is showing 30% margins now, wait until the new dry-electrode low-cost battery with less weight, more density and structural rigidity hits the market. This thread is really not the place for these discussions. While my daily is a Tesla, I am enjoying the hell out of our 812. And selfishly hope that the new replacement is a V12 as well.
Do what? Do you realize how much water is required for lithium hard rock mining or brining surface deposits? It is in the oceans, yes, but, it not easy to find vast deposits that can be "mined", check it out. And "mining" lithium can easily result in various toxic metals being leached out into the surrounding soil that destroys ecosystems for centuries. EV motors are full of rare earths for the magnets and look where those come from... The efficiency of an EV battery is well under what is in gasoline, not even close on energy density much less ease of transfer. Tesla is desperate for nickel and other minerals, they will be struggling as all EV producers will be with the lack of raw materials required. No OEMs will be going out of business in next 5 years due to Tesla, remember, Tesla only recently made 1m cars in a single year, current worldwide annual demand well exceeds 60m. As for new battery tech, always promised, nothing delivered (not speaking of 4680 cells) but various exotic battery chemistries.
Here are some additional reading for your review, it will help fill in the blanks... https://unctad.org/news/developing-countries-pay-environmental-cost-electric-car-batteries https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/04/volt-rush-sanderson-review-electric-cars-ev-dirty-mining-resources-extraction-china-africa-congo-batteries-minerals-tesla-green/ https://electronics-sourcing.com/2021/12/13/what-is-the-price-to-pay-for-mining-lithium/ https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/22/signs-of-forced-labor-found-in-chinas-ev-battery-supply-chain-report.html https://financialpost.com/commodities/mining/china-lithium-ion-batteries-child-labour-us-trade-war https://www.rgj.com/story/opinion/voices/2022/07/13/americas-electric-vehicles-shouldnt-rely-slave-labor-china/10022999002/ https://gizmodo.com/child-labor-cobalt-polysilicon-electric-vehicles-1849620367 # # # https://www.grid.news/story/360/2022/10/04/the-demand-for-electric-vehicles-is-skyrocketing-can-the-supply-of-lithium-and-other-critical-minerals-for-batteries-keep-up/ https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/metals-and-mining/our-insights/lithium-mining-how-new-production-technologies-could-fuel-the-global-ev-revolution https://insideevs.com/news/587282/tesla-nickel-mining-deals-future-battery-supply-strategy/ https://www.marketplace.org/2022/11/03/electric-vehicle-batteries-graphite-shortage/ https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future The production of lithium through evaporation ponds uses a lot of water - around 21 million litres per day (5.5m gallons). Approximately 2.2 million(581,000 gallons) litres of water is needed to produce one ton of lithium.
812 replacement rumors. This debate is pointless and also brought up multiple times in this thread. Anyone have anything actually useful to contribute?
Full of contradictions. Lithium good. EV to destroy ICE in 5 years. Gasoline very bad. Hope V12 ICE is always there.
Agreed. On another note, Euro 7 from the few pieces I've read on it so far since yesterday's EU publication looks set to have no major changes for nitrous oxide emissions from petrol cars, but changes for diesel, bringing them in line with euro 6 petrol car requirements. There are also additional points about particulate matter from brakes/tyres and also the fact that the proposed implementation date is not until mid 2025. So... Can anyone with knowledge of the regs confirm/deny my thoughts below? 1. Assuming F167 gets type approval before Euro7 comes into play in 2 years, it will be allowed under existing Euro 6 rules? 2. Do the summary articles I've read misrepresent that car petrol engines are basically unaffected for Euro 7? 3. If that's the case, does that theoretically mean that F167 has until the ICE ban comes in 2035 to get type approval? 4. What are the implications of particulate matter from standard carbon ceramic brakes Ferrari's all have now vs. steel? 5. Euro 7 presumably means tyre formulations will need to change post 2025. Does this mean we get less sticky rubber going forward?
Yes it means high mileage hard rubber tires. We will return to the days of 0.80 g’s where supercars barely held the road. Exciting times ahead[emoji17] Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Slicky tires wear faster on the road surface. Wear is the definition of rubber off the tire. Easiest way to reduce wear is to harden the tire killing performance.
