SF 90 XX

The mere fact that xskier personally knows three (3) SF90 Srtadale owners who were either afraid of the car's performance or are unable to cope with its interface is indisputable, unless one cares to call him a liar. Now, that might not be the case for the majority of owner who are not enamoured with the Stradale, but it might account for a good percentage of it. Naysayers will always hate what they don't understand, but I guess fchat is what it is...

 

I go through all the corridors of the factory in a year more than you in a lifetime, not counting the rest...
So I think my feelings, shared by many people who work there, are closer to reality than yours !
Thank you for keeping your condescension for your employees

 

Top down government regulation is not under the control of any car brand. Wanted or not, they cannot resist it and must accommodate a solution to it in their plans.

How big do you think Ferrari were when they first made cars? Electric commoditises BHP so there will be many who want a share of the premium car market because they now can. The EU and now other nations such as the US are heading towards a zero tailpipe emissions future which changes the field of play completely. Personally I think it’s stupidity but I don’t get to decide these things either. Unless the world suddenly decides it wants ICE vehicles again (and by that I mean governments not customers) then companies finding ways to satisfy those who want to drive a high performance car with new powertrain technology is who will ‘win’ in the future. I doubt very much ferrari are afraid of Lamborghini or McLaren. They have successfully completed with brands like that for years. The new threats are far harder for them to fight against because new challengers don’t have old-model infrastructure and costs like Ferrari do.

Ferrari have to remain pre-eminent in what buyers will be buying in the future, there is no other alternative for them. They cannot just slide slowly into irrelevance - that just won’t work, they’re too big. Others get to say what products are acceptable (they’ve always lived with road regulations and homologation) their task is to meet those regulatory challenges better than competitors.

Simply fixing on a view that unless they build lighter cars and with no electric assistance they are doing badly is not realistic in the current environment.

As for the Chinese, I don’t think it shows us as smart to ignore them. I have a business in China and know the motor industry there well. They learn fast, move fast, have the world’s best battery industry (and Europe has none) and are successful owners of various respected European car brands from which they have gained plenty of design and engineering know-how. They may not ultimately be successful quickly and they will have problems. But they hold plenty of the cards they need.

 

How would you explain why people buy a Tiffany’s product, Rolex watch (with those intricate gears vs my iPhone) or for that matter, even a rare/famous painting?

Ferrari have done a great job building a luxury brand and will continue to sell cars for the same reason people buy the above three things at crazy prices. But if you’re right and they don’t, wouldnt the sf90 earn more fame and potential collector value as the car that killed them ? Firsts and lasts of things are often the memorables and the collectibles!

 

That's what I meant when you talk about luxury watchmaking: there is a "container" and a "content".
This is the case of Ferrari with the V 12, there is a container and a content.
When you only keep the container, it doesn't work, look at Formula E.
It will be the same when Ferrari will be full electric.
Imagine a Patek, Rolex, IWC, Omega...with liquid crystals on the dial. Everyone turns away.
It already happened to Ferrari in 1993 when they nearly went bankrupt. Initially, with the speculation of 1989 / 1990 originally generated by the sale of the F 40 of JM Balestre, former FIA president, the 348 which replaced the 328 in the emergency generated 4 years of delay to obtain one.
Following successive bad returns, from mid-1992, no one wanted the car ordered. This range represented the bulk of sales, debts have accumulated following the collapse of sales.
There is the container, but not the content, because the car was a regression compared to the 328 and lacked a lot of development.
In my opinion, those who lived and understood this period understand my reasoning when I say that the full electric will only leave the container, the mechanical identity being much too strong since the myth and the soul of the brand rests above all on the engine !

 

This may be perfectly valid for our generation, but what are the demand of the next generation.. who knows. Car makers cant chose i guess, either you adapt your self with the requirements and law, or you have to give up your bussiness.
imagene in ten years, when only elec new cars are allowed, there is very well space for a high power beautifull designed Ferrari/Lambo/Mclaren etc. sport car, which will be selling very well (to a younger clientel)

 

At some point, existing Ferrari (& Porsche, Lambo) clientele will jump off the new car train and keep what they have or pivot towards buying past models. This is already happening to some degree and is making room for the next generation of buyers who are mainly paying attention to the future models. They’ll happily buy hybrids and EVs because to them, that’s leading edge and delivers big performance numbers, not to mention consistent with the engine formulas in top racing categories.

I do think it will become less about the driving experience and more about the styling, interior finishes and brand history/status. Those attributes will keep Ferrari very successful for a long time although it won’t be enough to satisfy much of its traditional customer base.

 

@Lukeylikey

That's exactly it, there will be no demand for Ferrari's/et.al. from future generations because they will not represent anything special at all. BEVs will be the end of all exotic car brands.

The mediocrity of BEVs makes "exotic" cars impossible because anyone can create an "exotic" BEV, anyone!

Look at Rimac, Pininfarina (Rimac production), Lotus, all their BEVs 'hypercars' are pointless fund raising that do not even come close to breaking even on development costs, extremely low production numbers and I do not believe they will sell out, even if they do, pointless.

As for the chinese, they are very good at stealing technology (and everything else), not so good at creating technology. For example, CATL was formed out of Japan's TDK BEV business...

As for China leading the world in battery production, it is their government's "new power" regulations that forced it.
https://ppp.worldbank.org/public-private-partnership/sites/ppp.worldbank.org/files/documents/SSRN-id2145789.pdf

they were serious about it well before anyone else... and pollution from mining is of no concern in China

 

Exactly ! especially since the biggest job of marketing in the decade to come will be to try to make people forget what was their greatest asset on which they still capitalize today: the ICE engine.
Hard to build when you deny your own identity
and what has been your greatest strength
...

 

I couldn't care less what corridors you are walking, if you think that you subtle flex is meant to impress me en-contraire it did exactly the opposite, without us customers you'd be walking empty corridors along with the other workers who do not share into the vision of the company.

You should have, if not pride, at least an ounce of respect for the company you work for or allows you to walk their corridors, all I read is denigration of their strategies, product and management and indirectly of their customers who don't share your vision, are you being held there against your will or are you employed as the sales prevention officer??

Furthermore you come on here, a forum concentrated with Ferrari customers, owners and enthusiasts alike spewing more negativity, treat everyone with content and an air of superiority because you are in the know and walk corridors, why would you do that? It seems very weird to me.

You do you but if you work for Ferrari and you hate the environment and the direction the company is taking have some pride in yourself and remove yourself from it, irrespective of consequences I wouldn't spend a minute of my life in an environment I dislike or don't agree with their vision, life is too short in order to compromise on this.

 

None of us can accurately predict what future generations will like, nor discount that future racing and marketing won’t form and develop their views in the way they did ours. That’s what racing and marketing is designed to do - and if they can’t influence customer views they won’t exist either. It’s just too simplistic a view to say that we who are old don’t like the product direction so the company is finished. It’s true that more people can create a BEV but not everyone can do it like Porsche, McLaren or Ferrari who will have F1/racing history and presence plus experience in satisfying customers looking for fast cars. When the existence of the company is at stake, they will get creative to develop new ideas that inspire customers to buy and drive their products. And that may mean that full EV is not the solution they find - for example some synthetic fuel vehicles or hydrogen combustion or whatever else may become part of their answer - I have a strong view that none of the major exotics will ever be full EV but I might be wrong. I’m also not saying they will be successful, because the challenge is large, but if they just stick their head in the sand and build the kind of cars that some here say they want, they’re finished without any question.

Your point about the Chinese still doesn’t cast them as no-hopers. Like the Japanese and Koreans before them, they are very good at copying and taking an idea further. The Japanese did it to the British and these days there are very few people who would say the British are a better car building nation than the Japanese despite Britain still retaining some of the best design and engineering skill in the world. I have worked with the Japanese for over three decades but the Chinese have some important advantages over them. We are working with some new generation Chinese products coming to market and they are far ahead of where the Japanese and Koreans were when they started. Some of them are immediately comparable or better than equivalent western/Asian competitors. You’ll be seeing plenty on the roads of Europe over the next few years. It took the Koreans around 30 years to get ahead of most Japanese brands with Hyundai and Kia now being two of the world’s largest and most successful brands. The advent of EV and the superiority the Chinese have in it only serves to shorten that time because competitors - including the Japanese - are absolutely on the back foot over this. Could it be as quick as 10 years? That’s unprecedented and incredible disruption but it’s hard to be confident enough to bet against it.

Ironically, the Chinese view of EVs is as pragmatic and sensible as the EU’s is ridiculous; they build and sell them because they need pollution out of their cities - the only clear environmental benefit EVs bring. Of course they don’t care about CO2, at least not more than economic success. They do very much care about city pollution though. This means that China is already the largest producer of EVs and by a long way. A second reason or ‘by-product’ is to finally allow them to export their cars to Europe because the EU is stupidly trying to force their citizens to drive an EV whether they have a good use case or not. It isn’t the fault of the Chinese if we decide we want to hand them the keys to our auto industry.
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I am hoping you have an actual graph of actual electric-only cars, any graph that includes plug-in hybrids is pointless, the numbers do not represent "BEVs", but a confusing array of non-BEVs

As for "Formula E", not interesting...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-19/formula-e-washout-in-nyc-raises-questions-about-future-in-us

Compared to Formula 1, Formula E, if the figures are to be believed, viewers per race average 26% of Formula 1, and declining
https://www.racefans.net/2022/04/06/the-steps-formula-e-must-take-to-recapture-its-audience/

and Formula E being constrained to street circuits only demonstrates its inherent weaknesses, a joke really

As for the chinese, you are certainly brave depending on them for anything, they have never earned any trust
https://www.wired.com/story/china-cars-surveillance-national-security/
https://www.hotcars.com/why-gearheads-should-steer-clear-of-chinese-cars/

https://ipwatchdog.com/2022/07/11/a-license-to-steal-ip-what-partnering-with-china-really-means-for-businesses/id=150099/
“Despite these latest warnings from the FBI and MI5, and years of experience and knowledge within the industry, executives will continue to do business in China in ways that recklessly exposes intellectual property to future competitors.”

 

I don't understand why non owners non potential owners of the SF90 post in these threads.

Sad - Day and others can not be more cordial and appreciate those who do own and look forward to owning the SF90. Those halls he walks are people that need and love their job - I don't believe he walks thru stating his horrors.

Here is an idea - put them on ignore as they have zero value in these threads. Their goal is to make owners lives miserable - misery loves company and Day posting in these threads speaks volumes of the amount of misery he has to spread.

Oh the pain an SF90 owner must have as the car is sitting in their garage luckiest people in the world. 1000hp of the prancing horse!

Haven't posted in awhile - theses threads are to predictable.

 

I don't work for Ferrari, and as a customer with a 355 Challenge and an F 12
and I also spend time in the corridors, I express myself as I please, whether you like it or not.
That I walk in the corridor is not the subject of the discussion, just a hyperbole to express to you that you are talking about something and an operation that you represent to yourself but which does not correspond to reality.
I don't know if the SF 90 is your first Ferrari, but don't think that car makes you important to anyone, let alone Ferrari who doesn't even know you exist after taking your money.
You're happy, good for you. About me it represents the worst derivative of a new brand and does not bring anything to the enthusiast in general.
Besides, in a while, dealers won't even know how to sell them...
It doesn't matter, that's not the point, and what you call my negativism is up to what the brand currently offers, if you lift the V12 range, consumables with no real identity except for the badge. But it still takes a bit of hindsight and objectivity to realize this, provided that your expectations are those of a fan who likes to drive (and not just in a straight line).
Nothing personal, you are just the representative of a new clientele with whom mutual expectations differ too much for us to understand each other.
Be happy with your car, I'm just sorry to see this brand ransacked.

 

Formula E is not what I’m talking about. I know first hand that F1 people must make their racing directly relevant to the direction road cars are going in and that is precisely how they are thinking. Synthetic (net zero but tailpipe positive) fuels is the likely direction they will take. There is a belief in F1 that there must be a link between the sport and what customers are able to buy. As I mentioned, I personally don’t think the major exotic brands will ever be full EV but they are already hybrid and that is likely to stay. A hybrid powertrain with net-zero fuel is a distinct possibility in the 2035 time window, even if it is impossible currently. If manufacturers can’t develop that technology in time, then something else will be used. If Mercedes only sell EVs by 2035, do you think that it makes sense to plough a few hundred million Euros into an F1 programme based on ICE engines?

Your impression of China is somewhat one-sided. They have the largest market in the world with American and European companies historically taking large market share through joint venture arrangements prevalent over the last 30+ years. The reciprocal American and European home markets have been hitherto closed to the Chinese through emissions and other engineering restrictions. The point of a JV arrangement is so that the Chinese learn how to take advantage of the value locked up in their home market to be able to learn how to compete internationally. International trade must work that way unless we are happy to see 1.3 billion Chinese remain poor and making our plastic Christmas presents earning $1 per week. I don’t believe it is as simple as saying the Chinese copy unfairly. And you’ll have to forgive me for being suspicious about stories that suggest the Chinese are the only ones we should be afraid of with regard to cyber security. It’s rife everywhere. If you don’t like it, get rid of your phone and laptop long before thinking about your EV.

 

You are demeaning a Ferrari SF90 customer and don't know anything about him or his relationship with Ferrari.
I believe your Ferrari is an F12 - hard to learn anything as you take every thread and make it about you.

SF90 Next AV Lambo and Aston Valhalla 1000 hp+ and Ferrari's SF90 is years ahead of the competition - past 918 LaFerrari P1 - we get it you hate them all but there are 1000's of customers dealers factories who count on buyers - of which you are not existent. Think about what you are saying to owners vs the peanut gallery!

The SF90 is a hyper super car - you are so far out of your league it's embarrassing to this forum and Ferrari - when you spend 600 - 900k on a Ferrari feel free to share and same to others.

You insulted the factory the dealers and their customers - stop already.

 

Excessive egocentrism on your part, but as I told you, we have nothing to share. There is no insult, ever ! You are just here to show off what you have and I don't see any reflection on what you drive... Your SF 90 is anything but representative of the brand, whether you like it or not, It's a fact and I'm not making it up.
You confuse insult and argument.
We are on a forum, so I express myself freely without asking your opinion, unless freedom of expression is a problem for you...
When it comes to the league, it's rather steering wheel in hand that it expresses itself, not by the wallet or else we're talking about something else... and there I think that on any road you wouldn't follow the 355 challenge with your SF 90 unless you end up in the trees !

 

How about you deal with the truth - of which you have zero experience of the SF90 ownership.
SF90 not representative - then why do you post in this section ... pathetic.

 

I spent 2 afternoons with my friend's, one of which was on the circuit where I had posted the condition of the tires after 3 laps..
Enough to feel all that weight under braking which gives the feeling of crashing against the back of the seat, the unusable power, the steering over filtered, the inertia when you pull in the rope on the brakes...it's very far from this which gives me emotion. I had 1000 times more fun with an STO for half the price, 2 weeks ago in the hills, and I would have preferred Ferrari to come out with an STO than this SF 90...
If you have fun with it, so much the better, for me, it's bland at all levels...
I'm waiting for your driving experience !!!

 

Why do you think all SF90's are created equal?
Because you post in every thread - the AF VS are far different.
Your 355C is a converted 355 and your F12 is a decade old - don't go away mad just go away.
I only come here to learn - when I do get my SF90 I will participate.
My point is you only come her not be rude to SF90 owners and enthusiasts - do you see them going to the F12 and 355 saying your old car is worthless ... no!

 

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You can, it doesn't bother me, on the contrary!
I know the faults of these cars, I never said it was perfect.
I'm talking about " identity" and natural car that characterizes the brand vs artificial car (I put the 296 in the lot)
So you're going to ask Chris Harris and the others to avoid commenting on the SF 90 and Ferrari?
Accepting the argued contradiction is the basis of an exchange forum! we don't agree, and then, nothing serious, life goes on for both of us, each with our cars.

 

The weight remains the weight, asseto Fiorano or not.
And to forget the weight, they play on the direction (idem F 12, 812...).
The laws of physics are the same for everyone !

 

That hasn’t really been my experience. Comparing Pista, Speciale and now Senna to SF90, the SF90 compares well. It is what it is, has advantages and disadvantages but as a driving experience it is excellent and offers something very different. I haven’t driven it on track but have done 3,000 miles across Spanish and Portuguese mountains and twisty roads last year - some very broken - and the tyres have no extra wear compared to, say, a Pista (which I took to Portugal and Spain this year). I know track driving is very different but are you sure that is a 3 lap old tyre? I don’t get the feeling I’ll get anything like that wear when I take the SF90 to Silverstone next year. Other SF90s I have seen there didn’t get that wear, even on non cup2 tyres lapping around 2.28 on the GP circuit for a full track day (pretty fast given the value of the car but full pace is maybe 2.22 for a decent amateur if he/she really pushes). No doubt there will be more wear but my gut feel says if you go through Pista tyres at a rate of a set per 4 track days, you’re probably going to get 3-ish from SF90 (yes it’s only a guess but maybe some have direct experience?). It’s not the only high power 1.7t four wheel drive to hit the track at speed. If you’re spinning tyres that’s a different thing.

 

Honestly I hope you find joy in your life and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way

The reason why I am saying this is because as you told me you own few Ferraris, that makes me think you have the means to enjoy a decent/fulfilling life but the way you come across it seems to me that you life is devoid of joy, I might be wrong, maybe you are happy, if you are it doesn't come across. Stay positive and look at the bright side.

Do you think I care about what Ferrari thinks of me or does with my money after I give it to them? I bought a consumable product as long as I am happy with it, why would I care what my butcher does with my money or what he thinks of me after I left the store? You seem to think that everyone looks for status and affirmation via material possessions, I am the easiest and most humble customer.

I understand how business function and I know the limitations you have to impose on a supplier, everyone needs to prosper.

As for me, I hate bragging but since you asked, this isn't my first Ferrari, I am a car nut, I have actually lost count how many cars I have owned, all sorts of cars from $500 Ford Fiesta to multimillion dollar exotic, I have just took delivery of two and have two others on order.

Unfortunately I am obsessed with cars and because of that I constantly want to be involved with them be around car people, share my passion with other car nuts that's why I hang around these boards but slowly I am starting to sign out and stop contributing due to all of the negativity and people sucking the joy out of things, arguing over utter nonsense and things which do not matter in the big scheme of things.

I don't need negativity in my life, I need happiness, joy, excitement, these forums used to provide that, not anymore that's why they are starting to slowly extinguish with people moving to other formats and platforms, it's truly a shame.

Anyway I honestly wish you the best and I hope if you are happy you will stay happy and if not you will find some happiness.