B-17 and P-63 lost at Dallas CAF show

Could the P39 have had wing or control issues ?

 

I'm not an aviator but I spent three years working with naval aviation, two years as a line officer on U S S Intrepid and over a year at Naval Air Station Alameda CA. Visibility looks clean to me Rob. and recall that this was a P63 King Cobra, a mid-engine aircraft with the engine behind the pilot, thus better visibility than virtually all other single engine aircraft. Without a note from the P63 pilot we'll never know, but I'll have to see a lot to be persuaded this was an accident.

 

Ive' got to agree. From what I can see in the video, there were two fighters crossing behind the B-17 right to left . Then the P-63 appears from the left in a high speed tight turn to his left slightly above the B-17. I don't think that he had a visual on the B-17 but was making a blind turn estimating that he would be passing behind the bomber. Bombers and blimps have the right of way and it's up to the smaller more maneuverable aircraft to exercise avoidance.

 

I should apologize for making my initial analysis on a fuzzy video that to me showed the P-63 slightly below the B-17 and not slightly above it. Caution next time ..if there is a next time and there probably will be..

 

Very sad. I think this is the P63 and B17G at the EAA fly in at Oshkosh a few years ago.


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That's s/n 85829 'Yankee Lady' >>> https://johnweeks.com/b17active/index.html
see Post #8 (note tail#)
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/148830021/

https://commemorativeairforce.org/aircraft/2
*Texas Raiders* s/n 83872
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.

 

Saw the L on the tail and thought it was. Really sad loss of crew and aircraft. That P63 was the only one of that exact type left, and experimental P63F?.

 

Eighth Air Force >>> 'L' = 381st BG (Bomb Group)
http://www.303rdbg.com/8af-markings.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20030715154304/http://armyairforces.com/tails.asp
.

 

Tonite's NBC News had a story on the collision.

The point they brought out was there are probably hundreds of videos from multiple angles available. The plan is to gather and integrate as many videos as possible to calculate the various factors for each aircraft such as speed, heading, bank angles, etc. to determine exactly what happened. They expect the analysis to take 12-18 months before the crash study is completed.

 

Were the planes privately owned or government owned?

 

Another angle, from spectator in the stands.
Here you can see the planes coming together from a near head-on angle. How could he not know the 17 was there???

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=513849954122629


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Aside from the tragic human toll, the loss of these aircraft is particularly unfortunate. I considered Texas Raiders to be the best-looking of all the B-17s currently flying, while the P-63F was one of only two that were built, and undoubtedly the only survivor of the two to this point.

I saw the posts wondering if this collison was intentional, and from all the video clips I have seen it certainly looks like it, but it's hard to imagine a CAF pilot committing murder/suicide. The P-63 pilot descended into the B-17, and if he had lost sight of it, I would imagine the logical move would have been to pull up.

This photo was taken at the Cobb County airport this past June.

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If you project a line of vision over the nose of the P-63 it does not intersect the image of the B-17, it projects above it He knew that the B-17 was there but he did not establish exactly where. He continued his tight turn into the flight path of the B-17 without actually seeing it until he over-took it. It appears that there was a B-24 in trail behind the B-17 and some other smaller aircraft , too. Why would the P-63 be intruding a line of aircraft in a blind turn? I don't know what maneuvers were planned for this display but I sense that it wasn't well organized or well executed. Again, my impressions from videos that are open for challenge.

 

This pic tells a lot when combined with the previous video viewed from inside the P-63s turn circle. I think in the end the conclusion will be that the P-63 pilot had no clue that the B-17 was under his nose. He was very likely in that left turn and clearing his “intended” flight path for a while. When banked and on a collision course there’s no line of site motion so the B-17 effectively and unfortunately remained “hidden” under his nose or right side cockpit fuselage below the canopy rail (although P-63s don’t have a canopy rail really). The pilot likely never saw the B-17 as he whacked the top rear fuselage still in that fairly aggressive left bank. If he had seen the bomber even a couple seconds before, a roll to wings level would have let him pass behind the bomber. That never happened. He never saw it. Just my 2c.
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Some of the things that I know.

I knew the pilot of the P-63, he was a Tora pilot as well as the P-63. He was set to retire from the airlines next month. He was ckd out by a good friend of mine in a T-6 as well as in the Tora group. My friend is probably the biggest hard ass ck pilot there is. Fly well with no errors in judgment, or he will stop teaching you. He not only accepted his skills but he continued to be a close friend of his.

I met the P-63's pilot's daughter at the Reno races and he was ALWAYS in great spirits and a fun loving jovial man, with a big Texas personality.

I have flown these types of race track patterns at airshows including Oshkosh in a Mustang several times and I never really had any trouble with keeping the other planes in sight or the path I was supposed to fly. I do remember at some smaller shows we would call the first aircraft on the run and then when the last cleared.

Having never flown a P-63 before I can't speak of the visibility of that aircraft.

If you ever watched the Tora show it is designed to look chaotic with several different patterns being flown at the same time. So it is a mystery (until the NTSB report) as to why it looks like he flew so wide.

I will tell you what bothers me the most is when my daughter looked at his Facebook page and his daughter is pleading with him to let her know he is OK.

I don't want that to ever me one of my kids and I try to fly more carefully just for them.

 

Seems like the P63 couldn't see the B17. The P63 could have been out of position for the parade laps by going to fast. Or the B17 was behind schedule.

 

Sorry to add more to the tragedy but as I recall the FAA limited the crew allowed at an airshow to the absolute minimum. Pilot groups petitioned for safety to have observers included.

So if there were 5 on board would have been 2 pilots, the flight engineers, and 2 observers in the waist windows.

So one of the observers might of seen the P-63 coming directly at him.

Terrible thought. And just another reason to pray for the crew and their families.

 

This is the video that disturbs me the most. There is a line of airplanes behind the B-17, what appears to be a B-24 and some fighters. What the heck is the P-63 doing by turning into the rear of the B-17 ?? This just doesn't make any sense to me .The fighters in the background seem to be in an "escort position" with the airplanes following the B-17 . The P-63 is barreling in hot and in a crossing blind turn.

 

Very sad loss of life and historical artifacts.

guy makes several questionable statements like "P-63 pilot COULDN'T see the B-17". It's reasonably likely the P-63 pilot DIDN'T see the B-17 (focused on another plane, ground, etc) but unless helmet-mounted GoPro footage is recovered or until very detailed flight-track data is analyzed, seems a stretch to definitively say what anybody COULD see.

I LOVE seeing and hearing vintage planes in the air but having that many in the air at the same time, in such close proximity, maneuvering so close to the ground seems overly risky to me.

Someone mentioned flight-track data- can you post a link please?

side note: yesterday I was in Wuerzburg Germany, which was fire bombed in 1945 by >200 Lancaster bombers. In the Wuerzburg Residenz there were period photos of the destruction, with a B&W photo of B-17s in formation. Pointed out to the info desk that they used a photo of the wrong bombers, they didn't seem too concerned....

 

Blind turn? This film clip seems to me to confirm that the P63 had the B17 in view throughout and was turning deliberately.