Potential buyers will probably need more info on the “Fresh repaint” part.
Yeah. Wasn’t a for sale ad or I’d have been more specific . Paint was tired. Rock chipped to hell. Looked like it had been washed with a Brillo pad. Rather than do spot repairs on a metallic paint, I did the front clip. Shane east, of east Autobody in Orange did the work. He’s not as much of a Ferrari guy, most of what he does is restore vintage Porsches. The buttresses had been repaired and painted previously it looks like. I have before and after photos. Clearly the value of paint work is 100% dependent on the quality of the work. I personally think it’s a $200k car. I’m preaching to the choir here, but it takes a lot to get these right. Maintenance, minor trim that has been separated from the car over time, the right hardware everywhere. Correct hoses: stickies. Fuse panels. Etc etc etc. not to mention servicing. There is an opportunity cost of time to make the right while the car is in a shop… photos of the car are on my Instagram account: thamattdaddy
The BaT listing showed two accidents on the CarFax, yet his Fchat ad said nothing about that. Someone even commented about assuming a clean CarFax and he did not respond. Someone else asked for the VIN and he did not provide it. The accidents were supposedly minor but why avoid mentioning it? Just a casual observer but not a great look.
And Fabspeed headers are $3k, closer to $6k with blankets, what's your point? If you think a valve guide job is $30k, you're out of your mind. With the engine already out for a belt service, you're looking at $7-8k. The service records Johnk posted above were basically a full engine out restoration with some crazy inflated part pricing / labor rates and was only at $24k. For reference, the charged number of hours for removing and reinstalling the heads (not the actual valve work which was outsourced) was 41 hours, which is over 3x book time, probably because it was mixed in with other work. And the valve guide parts were subject to a 2-3x markup (~2x on intake, 3x on exhaust). If you have a good mechanic and machine shop, valve guide costs should be: 12 hours labor R&R heads Outsource valve refinish ($2570 from Johnk's post) $500 in exhaust guides $1200 in intake guides $100 valve guide stem seals $500 head gaskets $250 misc seals Even at $200/hr, you're looking at $7500 + tax. I know this is a Ferrari forum so people like to brag about how much they overpaid to maintain their cars, but let's be realistic here.
Yep, if you take over a neglected car by previous owners be prepared at least $30,000 and upwards, this is fact.
Certainly, but the car that was being discussed was not a neglected car. The argument was made, as is usually the case, because the car failed to sell at the inflated prices some have been promoting here. 3 cars in GTS or Berlinetta have recently failed to reach reserve. All stalled int he $16x,000 range. That's the bottom line. No excuses necessary. We shall see shortly what the 4th car does. But be warned, it is a Euro car imported to Canada last month. So no matter how it goes you will hear about import problems and taxes, not to mention 43k miles. Probably needs new tires too.
Over 25 years old = simple import process. The yellow BaT car was delivered 12/6/1996, so no issues at all there.
LOL. What can I say? As you know, BAT is a one shot deal. As such, as has been discussed here, BAT and the seller must agree on a reasonable reserve. BAT certainly wants the cars to sell so they can collect their premium. I would assume the seller also wants the car to sell. The only logical conclusion I can reach from that is that the reserves are set based on reasonable market expectations and history. Therefore, given that the last 3 non spider cars didn't reach the reserve, which I would expect to ave been adjusted for their "mediocre" condition, what BAT believes is reasonable was above what buyers are now willing to pay for those cars. Draw any conclusion you like. At least BAT has certainly over estimated the market. They lost $15,000 in premiums on these 3 cars. Not to mention the last GTS to sell on BAT, less than a month ago, went for $285,000 with 15k miles. The most recent GTS NO SALE reached $168,000. $117,000 seems a pretty big adjustment for condition on a 24k mile car. Looking at the car I don't see $117,00worth of mediocrity. But, just my opinion.
https://www.motorcarsofthemainline.com/used-vehicle-1995-ferrari-f355-gts-c-3639/?utm_source=cars.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=cars.com_deeplink
Sure looks clean, cosmetically. As for the asking price, who knows. They can ask what they want, but I’d be curious what it would bring at auction without a reserve assuming no accidents and solid mechanicals.
Miller has a 20k mile GTS, 1st in class winner at 2020 Cavallino listed at $349,000. Been there a while.
Only conclusion I’ve drawn so far is the market is currently hesitant to pay market price for a euro 355, a yellow 355, or a 355 with Carfax dings.
yeah but... what is market price. What ever someone is willing to pay at any given time is the usual answer. With the small volume of cars, each car is its own market in time almost. I'd wait for the spring early summer as its also possible its seasonal variance. Who knows people in general tend to mix desire with reality and make up their own reality they defend like a religion. What is market price, I suspect as many opinions as there are people. 100 is too low, 300 is too high. That's a big range I know. Dust has not settled yet.
The market price from data of sold GTB/S’ within the last 12 months for non yellow, non-marred Carfax, and non-euro 355’s has been anywhere from $200-350k.
But that was market price one could say. Could be affected by lots of things. Including irrational exuberance. Perhaps market next 12 months will be different. $200-350k is strong for sure, let's hope that sticks. I'll bet it comes down for 18 months then goes back up after that.
why don't we limit future postings to discuss a more finite slice of the market: 95 USA GTB/GTS, valves done, headers done, clean carfax, no stories.
Of course. The future could always go in a different direction. Exotic/classic car market will always have irrational exuberance. There’s no mathematical formula to rationalize these purchases unless one is comparing to rentals/leases, which is non-existent for 355 GTB/S’. It all boils down to how hard it is to find, how much one is willing to pay once found, and how much a seller is willing to sell. Even considering the recent euro, yellow, and carfax dinged 355’s… they haven’t sold. Sold is what creates a data point because it implies a seller and a buyer came to a pricing agreement. Key here is sellers don’t need to agree to sell for a price they are unsatisfied with. Unlike homes or other assets, they aren’t making anymore 355’s. In fact, there’s less every year due to mishaps. Sure, there are comparables … but in my biased opinion, barely . Comparables/alternatives would need to come down in price. Because that group is small, it will be more resilient. Rising opportunity costs (interest rates, etc), credit crunches will force 355 owners to sell at lower prices when they are ready to sell. The future seems to be pointing that way, I just don’t think we’re there yet. Problem is there’s still too much money floating around chasing too few goods.
You can only slice the pie so thin. I seem to recall someone posting that when these cars got in the $250,00u p range people weren't going to be concerned with another $20 to $25k for guides and headers because the cars were rare. I never had any problem with the observation that quality effect price. But the market for a GTS/B will reflect that and what the average car is worth is, IMO, determined by looking at all sales and looking at the average price. Then you can say with some confident that market value is $xxxK +/- some amount for condition. I.e. a mean value plus a variance. Matter not to me. Just a topic for discussion. It will all play out in time.
We can further segment by paint thickness and direction of the bonnet to the sun when pictures were taken overlaid by tire brand and length of time till service is due with cars ordered by mileage. Personally I am hopeful for the spring surge which is possible but the general economy may dampen things but it may roar back with a vengeance when boom time hits and we see 500K examples. If boom time ever comes back.
