B-17 and P-63 lost at Dallas CAF show

I've seen a cockpit picture of the P-63, and the view down and forward is nonexistent.

 

In flight?

 

Rob - I agree that at least for some of the time, up to and including the moment of impact the B17 was apparently not in P63 pilots viz. There were a lot of planes to keep track of and presumably he didn't know the B17 was there, at least until it was too late adjust his course.

 

Absolutely. He was above the B-17 and making a hard turn that kept the view of the B-17 blocked until he hit it. I doubt that a good fighter pilot would be scanning the sky in any direction but straight ahead and upward in a tight turn. I still can't figure why he was making the turn in the first place except to pass behind the B-17 and not having a visual of the B-17, he tightened up the turn too much.

 

Many of you are on mark and arguing the same point. The P-63 basically did an unintended “rejoin” on the B-17’s outside wingtip. When we do level rejoins we are very slightly stacked low in order to a. Keep the airplane on which we are rejoining in sight and b. Allow an overshoot option to pass slightly low and behind the tail of the lead aircraft should we have too much speed/overtake to park safely on lead. When done right, we are often just barely looking over the bottom most edge of the canopy. And, an important point here, is that two aircraft on collision flight paths have absolutely zero motion in what we call “line of sight”. In other words, they keep getting closer and “bigger” but don’t move in the field of view. That P-63 looks to be in 45-60 degrees of bank, possibly more at times, through most of the pre-impact period. And, he “appears” to be slightly higher than the B-17. IF we are interpreting these suppositions correctly, it is entirely plausible that the P-63 pilot could not even see the B-17 for quite a few if not all of those last seconds before impact. I assume the pilot was a good pilot as most who fly these aircraft are. Avoiding a bomber in flight while flying a fighter is pretty darned easy… if you have it in sight. Of course I’m still speculating like all of you, but my take for now is that the P-63 noted he was flying wide of track while referencing the fighters in front of him and was tightening up his turn to correct his position. He likely never had the B-17 in sight or at least didn’t have it in sight for quite some time before transitioning to a flightpath where it was impossible to see it without taking out bank or descending (which he would not do at low altitude). All around this sucks and is sad for all involved. When I teach formation flying, I remind students that with only a few silly exceptions, the only way you can die flying is to hit the ground or hit another plane. It’s our job to know where these two threats are at all times. Sadly, sometimes due to our own errors, and sometimes just a bad set of circumstances, one or the other remain hidden or unknown to us. I would hold no big grudge against anyone here even if fault is found. It’s a dangerous undertaking.

 

I was responding to post #53, which I interpreted as a general comment with regards to cockpit visibility of a P-63, i.e. nothing to do with the actual incident. I found the comment to be odd, stating that fwd visibility is nonexistent. My question really was whether the pic that was referenced was an in-flight pic or one sitting on the ground, where the nose high attitude due to the nose gear would render fwd visibility to be more akin to a tail dragger.

 

Thanks, you have explained what I was trying to say but much clearer. It has happened to me in the past when I was horsing around with a buddy. There are times when you know that the other airplane is there but not exactly where until he's right in your face. All airplanes have blind spots and you can always turn into one. Clearing turns, clearing turns.

 

Barring any new revelations, the only grudge I might hold would be against the organizers for clearing so many planes, so close to the ground, and even over a populated area. P63 pilot may have been the best airline pilot ever but that's a lot different flying than any (modern) airliner does. Every pilot up there had to maintain extraordinery awareness of their plane, many others, and the nearby ground. Too much to ask of part time formation flyers?

 

ok from the videos it looked at least some of the planes flew directly or near as dammit over a Dollar General and maybe a McDonald's, but could be mistaken.

 

1st half of this video is nice footage of the last minutes of these gorgeous machines, 2nd half is just heartbreaking
Wings over Dallas 2022 B17 Texas Raiders Full Demo & Crash Tribute HD - YouTube

 

Planes were heading roughly north, over the shopping mall with Family Dollar and McDonalds Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yes. It has a large instrument panel which blocks the view. I didn't mean to imply that you can't see anything forward, but rather that you can't see much of anything looking forward at a downward angle, if that makes sense.

Watch this video, starting at 6:35, when he discusses the cockpit layout. About a minute later, he discusses the visibility.

 

All of these guys lived and flew in my back yard. Shame.

 

We all make mistakes, no ,matter where you live. We all feel bad for those who were lost . Over the last 50 years, the flying community here has lost a lot of flyers and too many of them were due to human mistakes. To analyze an accident is an important learning tool and no disrespect is intended. I have been messing around with this aviation thing for 86 years ( I know that is hard to accept but I'm 96 and I started young) and I have seen quite a few fatal accidents, many in the USAAF during the war. No matter how many you see, they always grip your gut and stick with you, especially if it's a friend . In spite of who caused it, there should always be an analysis, not to blame, but to learn. Human fallacy never changes and there will always be incidents to examine and to hopefully learn from.

 

About 7° downward visibility at estimated flight attitude (engine horizontal):
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It appears to me that in the P-63, the pilot is even with or perhaps even a bit in front of the wing's leading edge, which means that the downward view in this fighter is much better than most if not all other ones. The nose of this fighter is also much narrower than others, given that the engine is mounted mid-ship instead of at the front. With the power of modern computers, AI and all the videos of this crash, it should be relatively easy to determine the position of every aircraft photographed at any time during the airshow as well as the likely view around each plane. I don't know how that would be done but I have full confidence that many highly-trained computer experts have the requisite skills...and that it will be done for both any investigations as well as for legal purposes.

 

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This is an amazing capture of the moment of impact. Looks like the cockpit of the B17 is very much intact leading to a dreadful final few seconds for the crew.

 

Does not look like even having ejection seats would have saved anyone. Cockpit area looks pretty torn up and fragged.

 

It looks like the impact was in the aft end of the flight deck. I can identify the sighting dome and the windshield but nothing aft of that. Just above it one can identify the P-63 nose and prop .To me, It looks like it was instantaneous for the B-17 crew.