OE 3.2 16 inch wheels - type of metal and color

Hi,

my first post/question here! Just bought a 1986 3.2 in blu chiaro with creme leather. The car had the TRX alloys on it, so I sourced the 16 inch variant for quite a hefty price and they need redoing. Now I was wondering if these wheels do have magnesium in them and what kind of color was original? I read that FER101/c might be the right choice for the color, but have not read anything about the metal used.

Best regards from Germany!

 

Forgot to add some pictures of the wheels…
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I believe they are aluminum. I would take the wheel to the powder coater and ask him to match the color. Please share the specifications when you find out what it is.
Congrats and welcome!


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That is a lot of wheel balance weights!

I believe the alloy is mostly aluminum but with some magnesium. Needs to be refinished like a magnesium wheel, ie. If you stripped it you use a special primer or the paint won't stick. It is confusing as some earlier wheels had high magnesium content, but I recall from some old threads that the late model wheel is some sort of more modern proprietary alloy. Under the silver paint, one can find the telltale greenish primer which is usually an indication of it being an etching primer which suggests some magnesium like finishing technique by the factory.

The best approach is to lightly hand sand the wheel and not remove any of the finish, or as little possible, and then repaint. The Wurth Silver Wheel Paint in a rattle can is as close a match I have found, and I mean virtually identical to the stock colour. Not sure if Wurth can provide a paint code for its product.

I think earlier wheel colors were different, darker than that on the 3.2 wheels. I tried 101c for touch up, it is not correct, too dark, so I presume might be for other model year wheels. Would no doubt look fine, and perhaps easier to touch up in the future having a known paint code.

I have read mixed views on powder coating, which along with the careful heating required can obscure hairline cracks when a old alloy wheel is failing.

 

Not much of an answer/conclusion, but, if you can do a rough density measurement (weight/volume), you should be able to determine if they are an aluminum alloy (mostly Aluminum) or Ferrari's special "light alloy" (Aluminum + ~30% Magnesium). Ferrari's "light alloy" wheels often (wrongly) get called a "Magnesium alloy" wheels, but, to get technically ticky-tack, they aren't (because the major component is still Aluminum) -- they are more difficult to refinish.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/what-does-tbe-t4-on-wheels-mean.130303/

My guess (but just a guess so don't rely on it) would be that they are not "light alloy" because 1) your OM does not specify that they are "light alloy" (and they tended to do that on the models that had light alloy wheels), and 2) wheels with large offsets (like Mondial wheels) need a stronger material (308 wheels made with light alloy have very small offsets). Please do post what you find out -- there may be some chemical test that the Refinisher can do on a bare spot (intentionally exposed somewhere on the backside) to determine if the Mg content is significant or not.

PS I, too, have always found the FER101/c color to be on the dourer, darkish grey side, and have opted for a slightly brighter MB silver wheel color in the past.

 

Wow, thanks for the quick replys so far! Highly appreciated!
The OE 16 inch wheels I bought seem to have been refinished by a previous owner and the paint is wrinkeling and not sticking properly. So my assumption was this might be due to magnesium in the wheels. As of the bad finish I will certainly strip the wheels to bare metal and start from scratch with new paint layers. When it would be with a share of mg then the proper primer is key.

Concerning the color I assume that my TRX wheels still have the proper color, but I find it too dark and grey. I would prefer a more silver color with very mild metallic sparkle.

I attach a pic with the 16 inch wheels and the bad paint and also one with TRX wheels and the color.

Yes, there are some weights attached to the wheels but the TRX that are on the car have the same. Maybe italian craftsmanship…
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So it seems like the wheels have some portion on Magnesium in them. Thus a special treatment is needed if you start from bare metal. What I have read the ProductPreKote in a certain DIY process (youtube Video by PreKote shows the process) should be applied before continuing with an 2k Epoxy Primer. Other processes like chromium VI conversion coatings are highly hazardous and not available anymore. The route of powder coating is also no option as Magnesium can react in cracking way to the added heat during the process.
…At least that’s what I read.
Any thoughts?

 

I would sand the rims but not to bare metal, so the structuur surface is smooth....then use a normal light grey primer....let it dry long enough (difficult with cold weather)...sand it again with 800 or more sand paper. I use spray cans they sell with silver color special for rims...that will do for the color. It looks like original after its dry.

 

If the wheel were original and needed refinishing the sand lightly and recoat with conventional paints is definitely the best approach. You never want to remove the underlying factory primers.

But in your case it appears a poor job has previously been done, probably with the mistake of taking the wheel back to bare metal and then not using correct primers.

With that, I think they would have to be again stripped, and reprimed. I think it a zinc chromate primer is required, after some sort of chemical prewash. The aircraft industry seems to be the source for the products involved.

I would definitely paint and not powder coat, no manufacturer powder coats wheels as a factory finish. And when it flakes, which it will, or gets damaged, you can't touch it up. In any event, the primer approach does not apply to powdercoat, they do some sort of iron oxide pretreatment on the bare metal. There is also no definitive answer on the heat implications of powder coating of the myriad of alloys out there.

 

at the risk of starting up a cuffule you could just stick with the TRX tyres

https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/classic-car-tyres/ferrari/mondial.html

They are actually fabulous tyres and Michelin do still make them.

I dont really understand buying expensive wheels to fit cheap tyres that will compromise the handling and ride.

 

In 2007 I did buy 4x 17" rims included PZero tires for less then 1400 euro (rims and tyres!) . At that time 4 TRX cost was 2200 euro ...only for the tyres. I do change my wheels often from TRX and 17" and vice versa. The 17" with PZero is a better ride I can tell you. 2 years ago I ordered your TRX new just for the MOT.

 

Hi Dougal,

while the TRX tires would be period correct I would guess that tire development has proceeded in the past 35 years. Obviously I would not want to go the path and buy some sort of cheap tire brand. But I hardly believe that a proper current Michelin, Pirelli, Conti, Dunlop is not better than a tire design that is four decades old.

 

The period correct tires for the non metric wheel in 1988 were a Goodyear Eagle VR or Goodyear NCT tires.

I am now running Goodyear Eagle Sport A/S in OEM sizes on on my 1988 Mondial 3.2 Cab.

I think they ride and handle really well, and even the tread and sidewall look is pretty close to the original Goodyears. They drift/slide without abrupt breakaway, and when driving normally are low noise and have a compliant ride. They also have a rim protection band.

I have previously used Pirelli PZero Neros, and then Cinturato Plus, both in A/S versions. They are no longer available in our sizes unless some run out stock. I was not so keen on the Nero's, too stiff a ride without the feel a stiff sidewall should provide. The Cinurato's were better, a softer ride yet still sharper steering. The A/S's tend to have a less grippy compound, but better tread pattern for eg. wet roads and perhaps because of these features I have found had better dry road breakaway character, ie. no snap oversteer. Too much grip on these older cars is not necessarily a good thing. I do also drive into freezing temperatures, and rock hard summer tires at freezing temp on a mid engine car is asking for trouble.

The Goodyear Eagles are available in summer and A/S compounds, are mid priced and look good. Easy choice for me, and hope they keep them in production in the OEM sizes.





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@moysiuan : Thanks for the info! Highly appreciated! Could I ask you for a favor? I see your alloys still have the black writing "Ferrari 8Jx16" on them. Could you send me a close up high resolution picture of that one and the 7J one? Mine is missing that obviously and I would like to reproduce them as I refurbish the wheels. Is that a sticker?

 

The graphics appear to be painted on, like from a stencil. Using a crappy plastic caliper that is not an easy fit into the recess of the curved wheel lip, I measure the straight* length on the top from each side of the graphic to be about 85mm, 83mm measured at the bottom. The height is 5mm. The space between the Ferrari and the Numbers is 8mm.

*I measured a straight line, while the actual graphic is curved with the wheel.

(fyi, the paint chip was touched up with the Wurth Silver Wheel Paint, you can see what I mean when I say it is an exact match).

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Tyre carcass design has changed to suit the modern chassis set up of a car. Your Mondial is still a Mondial, and would suit the TRX or the Goodyear of the period would be better than a modern carcass design. A modern Goodyear or modern Michelin will not suit your chassis as well.

Dont get me wrong the differences will be subtle, fit a modern tyre, you aren't immediately going to swerve off the road into the nearest ditch. There will be just subtle deficiancies in the ride and progressive handling.

Also worth noting that the classic tyres that are made today today by Pirelli and Michelin are made in their own modern factories, with modern quality control systems, so the build quality is of course absolutley the top of its game.

Also the Michelin TRX or The Pirelli Cinturato P7, though they have period carcass characteristic suited to your chassis set up, they do also use modern compounds, which do give more grip particularly in the wet.

Build quality and better gripping compounds are the only extra features that modern tyre production offers that will benefit your car, and the TRX and P7 offer both them.

So when you fit the standard TRX

https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/michelin-classic-tyres/trx.html

you will have the car behaving the way Ferrari intended it to. However all with a bit more grip. I would suggest any of these other tyre set ups you will have will not give the ride the TRX does. It is really an exceptional tyre.

The Pirelli P7 Is the 16" tyre option offered by Pirelli for the Mondial in period.

https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/pirelli-collezione/cinturato-p7.html

Is also the top tyre of that period and will also make the car drive at its best. The progressive handling of the P7 works beautifully with car design of this period. I think that in period Ferrari were having a bit of a lovers tiff with Pirlli at the time. I cant think why else they didn't fit the P7. Along with the TRX they were the tyres of choice, and still are for your cars.

Fitting modern tyres is a compromise, often to save money.

 

I am a big fan of these classic tires being available, especially the TRX for those that have the metric rims. I was in fact inclined to go with the P7's for my application, I am a stickler for originality, assuming function is still served as well. They look and are period correct, and were arguably the best tires in their day. I did do some inquiry, and learned the following:

The actual OEM size for the rear is not available in the P7 for the 16" rims. The 1988 Mondial 3.2 tires front are 205/55 VR16, and the rears are 225/55 VR16. The only Pirelli P7 rear tire that can be used is 225/50 VR16. It may well be that this size will work, but strictly speaking that would not be the OEM intended outcome. Ferrari did experiment with different tire sizes from inception to the 3.2 and t run out models, so I do beleive the specific tire sizes for these later ABS cars was thought through by the factory.

I also note Pirelli states the following for all of its high performance summer tires, whether modern of reproduction P7.

"Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels, or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle. Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in High Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Pirelli's warranty does not cover tires that develop compound cracking due to use in ambient temperatures below 45° Fahrenheit (7° Celsius) because it occurs as a result of improper use or storage."

It may well apply to other HP summer tires of all brands. But if someone expects to drive in freezing temperatures (and 7C is not really that cold at all) or stores a car in the winter in a non heated environment, these tires may not be suitable. Of course, those in more temperate markets need not concern themselves with this. But I do drive at 7C and below at the beginning and end of the "driving season" in Toronto, Canada, and while I have a heated/cooled garage for storage, I determined that as much as I like the look, I don't want to worry about the tires cracking even if that is probably a remote problem. Combined with the rear size not strictly OEM, the otherwise appealing and beautiful P7 is not for me.

I have autocrossed in my day, although take it very easy on the streets in a big city these days. Going for a tire with the right look and ride character is as good a reason as any, combined with the criteria of actual availability in correct sizing which is becoming the gating issue. Hence how I landed on the modern Goodyear Eagle Sport as the outcome.

Make no mistake I would probably do the P7 even with the tread compound caveat, just for the look, but only if they broadened the reproduction to include the OEM size. I doubt they will do this, Pirelli has targeted the fairly high volume classic Porsche market with the P7, and to my knowledge no Porsche has the same rear size of the late Mondial 3.2. As and if the correct size in modern tires become unavailable, I would certainly be thankful for a P7 reproduction option as a practical choice. Maybe I will then go for the metric wheels and TRX's that were also the alternative OEM fitment on my Swiss market car! Mondial owners, don't get rid of those metric rims!

 

Hi there,

I wanted to give a little update...

So I did not find out whether the wheels contain magnesium or not so I treated them as if they would.

First step was to give them to sandblasting (although just glass particles were used). Just the front of the wheel was blasted to remove the old paint down to the metal. I am certain, that the old paint and therefore the protective chromate primer was still on the rest of the wheel and I did not want to risk it. I also did not want the wheels to be paint stripped in a liquid as this may soak the wheel with that stuff and the interference with the magnesium is something I did not want to discover. I obviously sanded the whole rim with 400 grid sandpaper to prepare for later painting.

Second step was to protect the pure metal (magnesium with aluminum). The processes used in the past are no longer available due to safety reasons. Like zinc chromate primers. So I searched ALOT and found PreKote Surface Pretreatment which is used as a primer in the aircraft industry. It is really simple to apply. Just rub it on with scotchbrite and rinse off with water. I ordered it here: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/prekotesurface.php

Third step was to paint the 2K Epoxy Primer. I used APP Grund EP. This would seal the whole rim and be the basis for the next step.

Fourth step was to sand the whole rim with 400 grid and to apply a high build etch primer. This would fill little pinholes and imperfections. I am right now sanding the wheel again and apply another coat.

So far over 20h of work went into the wheels and I am far from the end.

You will find the pictures attached.

Right now I am debating on the base color, which will certainly be the original F 101/C Argento Nürburgring and clear coat - where I am not so sure. Should I use a glossy clear coat? Or rather matte? Or semi gloss? Older 308 rims look like they were painted matte, but I have the feeling that the Mondial rims were painted glossy... True or false?

I will also find a way to apply the writing on the rim bare with me on this one...

Blasted and sanded
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PreKote Surface Pretreatment
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Applied Prekote with Scotchbrite (red)
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Ready for 2K Epoxy Primer
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Painted with 2K Epoxy Primer
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Painted with high build Etch Filler
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What do you think @moysiuan is your rim regular clear coat?!

 

That is the factory wheel finish, I probably had waxed the wheel that gives it some sheen.

 

Yes, that's why I asked. But on the pic from you I can't really determine, if it's gloss or satin or even matte?! To me it looks quite glossy.

 

I have touched up the wheels over the years with Wurth Silver Wheel Paint, it is an exact match for colour and gloss.

 

So, after all this time it's time for an update. It took quite a while to get the wheels to a smooth finish before painting and clear coat.

I used Argento Nurburgring F 101/C as a base coat and put a 2K clear coat on top of it.

I made something special, as I added a OE factory-like sticker on top of the base coat before adding the clear coat. I made the sticker with a cricut sticker machine which allows to cut a certain design off of a sticker foil.
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Nicely done.

 

Finished with new Bridgestone Turanza T005 tires.
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