Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Without going back and pulling direct quotes (you can correct me if I'm wrong) you've claimed on multiple occasions that your boosted, 1000 hp K24 will be far more reliable than the original Ferrari F106 V8. Where do you get this from? Who implanted the notion in your mind that the F106 was "unreliable" to begin with?

Okay, wait a second. One unflattering comment about your build and tell me again, whose getting up tight?

Try putting some context into your opinions. The 1980 Corvette weighed 3390 lbs and made 180 hp from an engine with nearly twice the displacement as the 308. The 1980 Porsche 911 weighed 2756 lbs and made 180 hp from it's 2.9 liter six. My 1980 Honda Accord weighed 1962 lbs and made 79 hp from it's 1.6 liter engine which (gasp) blew it's head gasket.

The 308 was conceived and designed in the mid 60's by draftsmen with pencils and engineers with slide rules. You're standing on the shoulders of all those who came before you. Be a bit humble and show a little respect., that's my suggestion. You can take a Sawzall to your GTB all you want, I don't care.

Don't worry, I'm perfectly happy but when I hear trash talk I'm going to call it out.

 

While I do hesitate to insert myself into this discussion, I cannot let this unfair comment stand without a reply.

You are judging the performance of a 40+ year old car by using the standards of today. That's not at all a reasonable nor intelligent argument for you to try to make.

Rather, one should compare the capabilities of a 40-year-old car to other 40-year-old cars, in order to inject a sense of fairness into your perspective.

I have posted the info below in other similar discussions whenever the "too slow" criticism is leveled towards these cars (copied and pasted):

Finally, to place this issue into some historical context, let's compare the 308 "i" engine power output as a function of engine displacement to some of its major model year 1980 competitors:

Ferrari 308 GTBi/Si ---- 205 Hp from 3.0 liter = 68 Hp / liter
Porsche 911 SC ---- 172 Hp from 3.0 liter = 57 Hp / liter
Porsche 928 ---- 219 Hp from 4.5 liter = 49 Hp / liter
Chevy Corvette ---- 220 Hp from 5.7 liter = 39 Hp / liter

So, it can clearly be seen that the engine performance per liter of the 308 "i" series was significantly higher in all cases than other similar sports cars of this era.


You will be relieved to observe that I did not even bother to include any info concerning a 1980 Honda 4-cylinder engine into the above comparison.

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Finally, you note that, in your opinion, the original car was "damn heavy". Fair enough, it was. Ferrari, and all other manufacturers who wish to sell into this USA market, are forced to incorporate crash beams, frame reinforcement, bulky bumpers, and many other similar passenger crash protection features into their cars. That all adds significant amount of weight.

Since you have consistently harped about the original weight of the 308 as justification for your hybrid, can we all therefore assume that your Ferrari/Honda hybrid hot rod has sufficient chassis / frame strength and rigidity in order to meet and to pass Federally mandated passenger crash protection standards, as did the original 308? Would your car meet today's passenger car protection requirements? Or even those of the early 1980's, for that matter?

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For as long as there have been cars, folks have been modifying old cars to suit their current tastes. Our grandparents yanked flatheads out of their old cars and replaced them with small block Chevy engines. Our drag racing parents similarly replaced small 6-cylinder engines in their family sedans with such as Hemis and Rat Motors, all done in the name of creating a "better" car.

And what you have done here is nothing more unique, nor more clever, than simply this.

DM

(edit: I apparently wrote this at the same time as 'kcabpilot' was!)

 

Are you legitimately suggesting an F106 - a 40+ year old high strung engine - boosted to within an inch of its life to make 1000hp, is going to be as reliable as a platform that has been developed as extensively as the Chevy LS by the automotive aftermarket? Because I could link probably 100 articles showcasing 1000hp K-series engines that get raced and raced again. The formula to reach that power level is fully established, it's not even a stretch to do anymore. It's standard affair. I know multiple people running that power level on this platform.

Could it be done with an F106? Of course it could. But Nick Forza wants $60,000-$100,000 for engines that still don't even reach that power level. Versus $10,000-12,000 all day long for the K series platform.

Look, I get it. It's not fair to compare an antique Ferrari engine to a K series, as it's apples to oranges. But I dumped my apple basked out and filled it with oranges, so it's a comparison we've gotta make.

See my next reply.

Pot, meet kettle. There's been heaps of trash talking coming my way, and I've done nothing but call it out. I didn't instigate the fight - I just gave my own opinions and thoughts on a car, and you're the one who's upset about it.

 

Now this is a comment I can get into! I appreciate the time you took to put together a worthwhile counterpoint to my criticisms.

I will say, though, HP/liter isn't a hugely valuable metric in my argument. Power to weight is. After all, I've said the 308 GTBi is underpowered and over-weight (thus, more power or less weight would solve the problem. So let's take the 308 GTBi and compare it to some contemporaries.

Ferrari 308 GTBi: 202bhp, 3200lbs (published weights by Ferrari are dry weights, and I've weighed the car myself.) That's ~15.8lbs/hp.

Other cars from 1981:
BMW E12 M535i: 215bhp, 3153lbs ---- 14.6lbs/hp
Porsche 911SC (US spec): 180hp, 2550lbs ---- 14.1lbs/hp
Renault R5 Turbo: 158hp, 2138lbs ----- 13.5lbs/hp
Lotus Esprit Turbo HC (NA Spec): 215hp, 2690lbs ---- 12.5lbs/hp
Alpina B7 Turbo: 296hp, 3286lbs ----- 11.1lbs/hp

Now, I'll admit, the data above is only as good as the sources its pulled from, but I tried to find two reasonable sources for each figure.

The cars above all have better power to weight ratios than the 308, and are cars I'd say are all in the same family of "cool" (if you're asking me. It's admittedly subjective.)

More important than any of the above, though, is that I haven't compared the 308 to any of its contemporaries. I think a lot of people take my criticism of the 308 as being about the 308 and only the 308.

Everything in 1981 was underpowered thanks to emissions regulations. It all sucked. I'd be complaining about any car I was building from 1981... including the 1981 Audi Quattro build I started on my channel recently. But because I'm building a 308, my criticisms in my episodes will be about the 308, and because this is a 308 forum, I'm gonna discuss 308s specifically.

Agreed. The real problem is that the 308 is a lot heavier than most of its contemporaries. It's where it falls short, and it keeps all those ponies per liter from shining. Granted, most other cars benefit from unibody construction at the time, but that still falls on Ferrari. The Audi Quattro was introduced in 1981 and for the european market, made 190hp and weighed just 2866lbs... 400lbs less than the Ferrari... not to mention, it had all wheel drive adding to its weight. And rear seats. Etc, etc.

The '81 GTBi just got shafted, in reality. It's a good car, but it suffers from antiquated construction techniques of the time, paired with regulations to both structure and emissions. It was choked down and chunked up, yielding a car that is... unfortunately (IMO?) under-powered and over-weight.

No 308 would meet modern passenger car protection requirements - nothing built prior to the last couple of years would. So that's a bit of a stretch. But past that, yeah, I'd wager my 308 is just as crash safe as any other once I wrap a few things up. I've added a lot of chassis to the back end, and some to the front. But the only way we'll ever get to the bottom of this side of the debate is to crash test the cars. Otherwise it's all conjecture. It's not worth arguing about.

And I never claimed it to be any more unique nor clever. I've just defended it my decisions and my criticisms. Nothing more, nothing less.
At least, I don't think. But debate and discussion is always going to be interpreted in different ways.

 

Really liking this build. The interior especially is absolutely fantastic. The K24 is a fantastic engine, and a cheap way to get huge power out of it reliably, and they sound very good. That said I personally would've gone with an F430 engine as I think that would've suited the rest of the car even better and of course kept the engine ''in the family''

 

Please show us your data where it is not as reliable... I'll be waiting...

 

get it now? the F#ing car needs more power

 

well, the reality is with 1000Hp 3K+lbs or 2377 LBS... its still gonna be WAY faster than a 288, F40 or even a 488... let alone a Michelotto 308.... BTW the Michelotto's were not that much lighter - and when set up for Rally ( as they were originally ..intended ) they were a bit heavier... circuit racing slightly lighter than a stock 308... but not much. Why so much negativity for this guy? its a cool Car. ( Ferrari built and tested a 4 cyl F-1 engine in 1986.... pumped out over 1000 HP, but sadly kept blowing head gaskets after 20 - 30 min of testing. ... this is about what one of those for the street would have been)

 

If you have ever owned a Ferrari - especially a 308 - they are Mtns intensive cars. lots of stuff goes wrong on them. True - the engines themselves are very hearty and there are not many that just go boom.... but lots of electrical stuff, rust, poor fit and finish etc... AC is not great, Heating is not great ( but way better than AC ) all go to affect reliability. If you don't maintain your 308 series car - it is very noticeable very quickly. they are now just old cars that are like any vintage car - it requires love and attention. but even when they were new - they just took way more mtns. than a "normal" car.

 

A Lotus Esprit with a Chevy V8 would be a huge upgrade in performance and reliability.

 

I like what you have done. But to be clear also Ferrari did do a K series Honda thing back in the day - it was the engine for the Lancia LC2 - which had the 308 motor ( heavily revised - and could easily pump out 1000 Hp ... sadly the money and support was not there to develop it. It routinely beat the 962's on raw speed, but durability was not even remotely close. Ferrari did this under pressure from FIAT and it was a sideline that Enzo used to pump more money into its F-1 development.

I fully agree that the 308 was / is over weight for the power it produces. back in the day ( I'm old so I remember) 250 HP was "alot" for a road car. F-1 cars had about 500 HP up until 1982 ish... then started to go 650 - 700Hp... then by 85- 86 to 1000 Hp. when the Testarossa came out with 480 hp - that was CRAZY ... it was like double anything else. So some context has to be applied.

But - if you read period road tests - almost everyone talks about how heavy the 308 was/is. drive one hard... and you will instantly see the understeer and lead that all that weight induces. However, I've also driven a 308 race car that was used in SCCA racing that is lightened, and rose jointed suspension etc.. with a way lighter flywheel and about 600 hp.. that will light up all your neurons!

So for the detractors of this build - the builder Mr. Burrows is correct in saying the car is heavy... you just cant get around it. But also in the mid 80's 235 - 250 Hp was pretty good - not stellar but good... it took the Honda NSX to wake them up.

 

Dude, it's his claim not mine. He wanted an example of ignorant statements, that was one. I was simply suggesting he show a bit of respect for the vintage aspect of the 308 and not be so abrasive. Watch his YT channel, he goes on, time and time again with comments like "butt ugly, overweight pig" and such. It's not necessary to come across that way although I'm sure it pumps up his fanbase. He's done a lot of projects but none of them ever seem to come to fruition. My bet is he will put this on a dyno and it will show up again at next years SEMA, probably in yellow with a little more bolt on bling but doubtful you'll ever see it competing in GTA.. But hey, he sells T-shirts and license plate frames so go ahead and show your support..

 

Hi all - I've been following @M.Burroughs and SW for a long time. I think we all get very defensive about our 308's because they were crapped on for so long. I think, if anything, he has given us a kind of roadmap, to the people that would want to, create a pretty killer track car, respective of power plant. It is a "just add lightness" approach to the 308 and there haven't been so many documented deep dives into the bones of our cars.

Though I thought it would have been cheeky and cool if he redid the Honda logo in Ferrari font or vice versa somewhere, like on the cam cover.

Mike gives inspiration to the next generation that will buy our cars / passes the interest forward. It has been great to see him and liberty walk push our cars back into the limelight and relevant to youth.

 

What are you talking about? I've literally said, over and over, that the 308 is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful cars ever made, and that's the entire reason I bought it. I've said it's an overweight pig because, as argued, I think it is one. Why do you care so much if I call it one? Are you self conscious about your own 308?

You got me there. Like the Group A E28 replica I built that never made it to... I dunno, maybe a dozen track days and Bimmer Challenge events across SoCal.

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Or the LS-swapped FJ60 overlander that I put 25,000 miles on across the US.

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Or the Model A hot rod I daily drove.

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Or the S54 swapped E36 restoration that I've had for... 16 years now?

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Are we discounting the tube chassis E28 because you didn't see it do something you liked? Because BMW liked the car enough to display it at the BMW CCA headquarters for a year and then publish it in their 50th anniversary book.

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Or is it that the Model A doesn't count because it's been in some constant state of change/assembly/repair? Do you discount other peoples projects if they're yet to be complete?

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You know, now that I think about it, you're right. Nothing I build ever comes to fruition. I'm just slangin' t shirts and stuff. Could you give me some pointers on how you brought your projects to completion?

 

In a world where every young person consumes this guy is creating. He doesn’t sit around talking, he rolls up his sleeves and works. I respect what he’s doing. Not many here could do a 1/4 of the fab work he’s done.

IMO you all should cut him a break. If he used a Ferrari engine everyone would be patting him on the back.

 

The one that doesn't even have a firewall? You're joking right? Steam Punk show cars for display okay, I'll give you that and I'll even acknowledge it as a talent but let's keep it real. Not a man rated operational vehicle that belongs on public highways by any stretch of the imagination.

You could square things up with me if you posted a YT video and explained that all of your disparaging comments about the design and construction of the 308 come with a few caveats. First of all we know that 1981 was the absolute nadir for performance of production street cars sold in the US due to EPA and DOT regulations and that the 308 was in compliance with all of the regulations in effect at that time. So yea, it's got 5 mph bumpers, safety glass, catalytic converters with air injection and impact beams. Secondly it was a production street car, not a race car. So it's got a trunk, a full size spare tire, air conditioning, power windows, leather seats, plush carpeting and a radio. It was a great little GT sports car with a nice controlled ride and spirited performance that can still be enjoyed to this day. You can take long comfortable road trips in it. There were a number of other similar vehicles produced at the time by Maserati. Lamborghini and Lotus. The concept was adopted and improved by Honda and even at Ferrari it was an evolving platform with the 328, 348, 355, 360 and on to this day with the 296. Ferrari has never been a giant manufacturer like Ford or BMW or even Porsche, they produced only a handful of cars compared to those factories so they didn't have giant presses or robot spot welders and sure the tube space frame came right out of the 50's but they all had soul and heritage and honestly that's what I think you're missing.

Show some respect. It isn't about what you're doing to your own personal car that upsets people like me

 

Wow I surprised you still have the energy to argue your corner after the monumental B*#ch slap Mike laid out to you in his last post

 

Forget our rude posters - more important - how does the model a get over bumps and speed humps? its so cool... but in Atlanta I'd be able to drive it about 50ft before a pothole or speed hump put it out of commission!

 

Please stop already

 

I cant do 1/1000th what he did.... it would be cool if he used rubber bands to power it.

 

The problem is that your characterization of the 308 in its time is not really real. yes, all about the take it for a nice drive - yes, you can do that and they are fun, but so is my LO206 go-kart... you forget that Porsche at the same time was not anywhere as big as they are today... in 81 - a stock 308 came to the US with about 205 Hp ish... still a lot but slower in all respects to the steel-bodied 308 from 79. At that time Ferrari did in deed use stamped presses etc... even the fames were all made outside the Ferrari works... Mandelli "robots" or welding machines were used to assemble the chassis space frame, Scaglietti produced the bodies and sent them to Ferrari for final assembly. don't believe me - look at Michael Dregegini's book on the Factory. the 308 - and subsequent series of cars have never been "hand-assembled cars" .... but compared to other manufacturers they seemed that way. Regardless of what anyone says - the 308 is a Ferrari - and it is a picture in time of what the Ferrari was. it's still great fun to drive and own one. I'm sure the modified one here will be great fun as well... no need to denigrate someone's work. I'd remind you that Enzo Ferrari ran Ferrari's in F1 during the 50's with Lancia Engines... but they are badged as Ferrari's Does that make the 206 - and 246 Dino and its racing counterparts Non Ferrari's? - No. neither does this modification.

 

LoL seriously? You'd take this on a road trip? Because I can guarantee nobody's gonna let you on a track. So what is it? Art, okay I'll call it that, but nothing beyond.

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So the truck had a 2x3 .120 boxed steel chassis under it that sits just below the height of the cab/doors. The reality is, you just drag it over any speed bumps you encounter! It's all part of the experience. It looks a lot worse than it is in reality.

 

I never claimed it to be anything more than an art piece. That's literally what it is. Call the new owner of the car and ask him what it is. He's gonna reply "it's a piece of art, man!" It wasn't built to go to the track or to drive on the street. It was built for the sole purpose of building it. It was a creative outlet. If you're looking for more from it, that's on you.

It certainly doesn't mean the car never "came to fruition." Its quite clear that's not the case. It was sweet of you to ignore the rest of the post though.

I'm not missing that at all. Everything you have to say is 100% true. It also doesn't invalidate my criticisms. The 308 is great car for what it is. It's an icon, and deservedly so. I paid a considerable sum just to get my hands on one, because I too have a huge affinity for certain aspects of this car.

But it's still heavy, and it's still underpowered as an early injected example. A GTB? Not so much. A vetroresina? Now we're talking. But I feel no need to make sure I explain the caveats of my criticisms to make sure some guy on FChat is happy.

I owe no car respect. As the saying goes, respect is earned, not given. The 308 is a bottom-tier Ferrari. It's a Ferrari, of course, but an '81 GTBi is hardly cream of the crop. Lift the rose-colored glasses and you'll find a car that weighs more than its contemporaries, and that has fabrication underneath that puts it in a bottom tier of quality of manufacture compared to almost anything else of the time. You may love it for these reasons, and it may add charm in your eyes, but it doesn't negate the reality of it, nor the truth.
I'm not remotely disillusioned by the prancing horse badge, and I'm not gonna bite my tongue just to appease other people when it comes to criticisms of an inanimate, antique object I paid fair and square for, and one I've made myself intimately familiar with.

I have plenty of respect for the 308. But discussing what I do like about it isn't where any of this conversation has gone, and instead you're focused on (valid) criticisms that you take very personally. Why does my (negative) opinion matter so much to you?

 

Look, it doesn't and I don't want any of this to be personal. I'm just pointing out that your negative opinions and criticisms are presented in a less than tactful way and it doesn't have to be like that. You could present them with more respect and passion and people like me would accept it. You'd get a broader audience in the end if you'd follow my advice and temper your critical reviews with the fact that the 308 was pretty much in line with all of it's contemporary rivals at the time and stood it's ground with honor despite being a bit long of tooth from the get-go. That's my stance okay? That's what I'd like to see you do.