F355 Market

Great point. I'll take a shot

What seems to matter is how many of that car is on the market for sale or potentially for sale. And when I say "market," I mean a local enough market where it is convenient to buy and convenient to perform due diligence.

1000 cars made does increase the likelihood of more cars being available, but at the end of the day, what's driving up prices is what's actually available to buy and how many are willing to buy at certain price points (demand), not necessarily how many were made... especially, how many were made worldwide vs. locally.

I'm not sure if 355's will ever match Dino prices during the same time. It seems unlikely. Dinos commanding these high prices have gone through costly restorations and the market seems to value that time and cost put in. Like a home, if you invest in your kitchen properly, you'll most likely get it back in the resale. Most Dinos actually need to go through these restorations. 355's don't.

What's going to drive 355 prices is the value in the ownership and driving experience. As long as the market continues to lean towards a more nostalgic and purer driving experience, the 355 will always be in a good place. As I've said before, the 90's is already set in stone. There's no changing the pecking order. It's only a matter of time people realize what the true pecking order is .

 

Its why the F1 will be a liability vs gated box I theorize. People will long for an actual manual car.

 

Having said that...

I've been speaking with Mike @Yellow Compass on and off to encourage him to find whatever records he can to support the fact the incidents on his car's Carfax were minor. Parked car mishaps. I've mentioned before it's always best to disclose as much detail of the incidents as early as possible on BAT for best results. Mike obviously didn't do that as he didn't have the "evidence" on hand at the time. He does now.

For reference... we are talking about this car. A rare 1999 MY Red/Tan manual GTS.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-ferrari-f355-gts-9/


The minor incidents are similar to the incidents on the Bobileff Blue 1999 manual GTS. Mike would be more than happy to share all the details with interested parties. Keep in mind Mike's offering is 35k mi less! Mike knows he is selling a car with a marred Carfax. He's open to offers and highly motivated to sell. Figured I'd just throw this out there as new and important information has come to light regarding his car.

 

Agree with your 1st point but not the second. People aren't buying Dinos or other collector cars (Ferrari or otherwise) for the driving experience. As you point out, most 355s don't need restoration, only maintenance. They are just used cars at this point. People will pay what they want to pay for a used Ferrari.

 

Then you'll need to explain 348 prices and why they haven't kept up .

 

That's another point. Do you think a marred CarFax makes any difference on a true collector car. On many of the restorations 1/2 the sheet metal has been replaced. On some a complete body shell has been fabricated.

 

355 is a more desirable used car.

 

As with anything, I think it boils down to what's the "norm" for the specific car. It's about having realistic expectations if you want that specific car. An untouched, unrestored, museum caliber Dino is an unrealistic expectation at this stage.

 

The answer to your question is "no." While the demand ratio is the same the availability ratio won't be. The odds of one coming available in the first scenario is 1/10 the second scenario.

 

True, if you plan to put it in a garage and look at it. I don't think someone is going to buy a low mileage, pristine, untouched F355 for the driving experiemce. And that's why they are just used cars. Put 30-50k miles on and F355, or more, and what happens to the price? Even a spider with 880 miles sold for $224k back in Jan 2022. But if it needs tires, brakes, a major, headers, cats, interior work? The price drops significantly. Sounds like a used car to me. Their just mass produced modern Ferraris. Fun cars to own and drive. Some will want them in their collection just to complete it and pay for the privilege. Other than that, just another entry level Ferrari.

 

When someone is buying something they perceive to be an appreciating asset, they are looking for qualities they think will at the minimum preserve value, if not increase. Think of GIA certificate for a diamond. Like a diamond, there are specs and the buyer needs to buy into the idea those specs will preserve value. For example, if you are looking for "investment grade," you don't buy marquise cut. You buy round. The more people like a specific spec, the safer your purchase is in retaining value. When the market starts getting nitpicky about certain specs of a car, I believe it has transcended the "used car" category. The car becomes an appreciating asset (with periodic ups and downs) that you happen to be able to drive. Unfortunately, mileage happens to be a "spec," so the more you put on, it is presumed the value goes down. Bobilef Blue GTS had 60k mi btw.

The great thing about the 355 is the value doesn't drop per mileage put on. It probably drops in 5k intervals, meaning a 28k mi car, will fetch close to a 25k mi car assuming everything else is identical. A 30k mi car will probably fetch noticeably lower than a 25k mi car. This implies if you drive a car 1000 miles or less/year. you can drive the car for a good few years without having to worry too much about value. The "used car" aspect is the deterioration. But as you sort the car (properly), you are adding value to the "certificate" as they are specs people look for.

If someone wants the experience of buying close to brand new, they look for lower mileage. They aren't buying a used car. They're buying a time machine. Yes, you can make a higher mileaged car feel brand new or better, but that takes time, knowledge, and dedication. Some people don't have time for that, so they perceive the next best thing is low mileage. You also don't need to rack on miles to get the driving experience. Some like to have the experience on a limited special occasion basis.



Having said all that... what has "value" or what is an "asset" or what is a "used car" imo, is mainly individual perception. If enough people share the same perception, then it becomes what those people believe it to be, regardless of what it is physically or in actuality. Having been around diamonds and jewelry pretty much my entire youth, I learned early. I always questioned why people put value in such things because for me, they do nothing. I got zero enjoyment out of them. I also understood people bought them because others saw value. So I get it ... problem is I don't care as much about what others think as what I think. I like cars. I like the experience they give. For me, the experience is more real than looking at a shiny rock. I see value in these type of cars because they give a unique experience. If 355's were just "used cars," surely one should have no problem listing "used cars" that give the same/similar experience. In the same token, if someone drives a 355 and simply feels they are driving just another used car, I can't discount their perception. I can only try to help them make improvements to extract what they might be missing and hope their views change. This is why I'm all over the 355 section contributing towards various topics ... not just shilling 355's in the market thread .


A $100k 2022 Lexus luxury sedan has the same experience as a $50k 2017 Lexus luxury sedan. That's a used car. They're meant to be driven into the ground and I have done so. The 355 is meant to be worshiped, preserved, and enjoyed in light portions. Wine isn't there to quench your thirst. You are signing up to be a caretaker of an important automobile by Enzo Ferrari and ensure this artwork of an experience is preserved for future generations to appreciate and enjoy as you have.

 

I don't worship material objects.

Enzo had nothing to do with the 355 just as Edison had nothing to do with LED light bulbs. It was Luca di Montezemolo's baby, with Fiat owning 90% of Ferrari, but you know that. It's not meant to be worshiped. It was meant to generate income for Fiat. Everything else is just perception. A while back I posted a picture of a 355 with a Ford badge and asked, "would you buy it?" Put a high performance Ford small block (or Chevy). Otherwise the same car. Would you buy it? What's it's worth w/o the Ferrari badge? But it's a car and regardless of how, it's meant to be enjoyed, sipped or slurped, as you desire. The bottom line is I don't care about the value of my car or pretty much anything I own. I own things that I enjoy. As for value, if I chose to dispose of something it's only worth what someone will pay me for it. And what ever that is, it is. Here are a few well preserved examples.

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Nah, we all know (or should know) that the naturally aspirated F355 engine made more HP per liter of and N/A production car up to its debut AND rev’d like a sports bike. So no, I disagree

 

Yes, and it sounds just like the Tipo 044/1, 3 L, naturally aspired, 700 HP, 12 cylinder, F1 engine of 1995 that reved to 17,000 RPM. See your 3 and raise you . ()


I'm not knocking the car. I own one. I love driving it. However, when it comes to all this value garbage, if that what gets you off, so be it. To me it's boorish.

 

BAT is a horrible place to sell cars that are not perfect. Just like what happened here, the know- nothing commenters that will NEVER be able to buy whatever car that is up for auction poisoned the well and discouraged legit buyers. Everyone gets too wrapped up in a “clean” carfax, when we see cars with unreported damage all the time.

Having said that, the seller did not help themselves by having mis-matching descriptions of the damage. A low speed bump resulting in a scratch and some paint would not get a “moderate” damage rating. Just this year, my T-boned Ford Escape got the same rating and the damage was not minor. And how unlikely would the same type of incident occur twice?

The seller or new buyer need to go through the process of having the carfax revised if they have proof of repair costs (photos don’t work).

I went through this with my Diablo. When I bought it, they didn’t use descriptors like minor or moderate…..it would just say “accident” which really looks bad. The private seller said it was a minor stoplight bump, but because he had no proof (he said he did but never came up with it), I dinged him for 20% anyway after my inspector didn’t find any damage underneath.

A year later, he finds the repair receipt from 11 years earlier and sends it to me…..$6,500 from Lamborghini Manhattan, which supports the owner’s claim. So I go to carfax, send them the receipt, and they revise the paperwork to “minor” and list the repair cost of $6,500 on the carfax to show how minor it really was.

 

No. The engine is a huge part of what makes the car special, even for a Ferrari.

(Even more so if you drive it above the rpm range of a typical small block V8 with an RV cam).

If it was a mechanically identical Ford, yes I would buy it but such a thing does not exist.

 

Pantera *cough*

sjd

 

^ Link to dohc 5 valve Pantera?

 

5 are overrated...you just need a coyote swap.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/1972-detomaso-pantera-coyote-wolfs-clothing/

 

No one here is a bigger Ford fanboy than me, but a Pantera and an F355 are really different animals with different fan bases. Just because you like a marque and can expand on the restrictions (price, tech, etc) placed on the original engineers, doesn't mean it is fair to compare a "stock" car with something that has been modified. I see this argument all the time with "Throw a blower on my XXX and it'll crush cars that cost 3x as much." As much as resto-modding has become a popular hobby, I don't think it is a fair (although fun) comparison.

 

" resto-modding has become a popular hobby" Anyone besides hippies really like that anymore, even then most did it and have moved on to golfing.

 

Figure of speech. Repairing the undertrays every other year. Taking pics of the car in random spots and sharing them online. You're proud of the car.

 

Good advice.

For whatever it's worth, Mike is more than happy to ding his asking price.

 

For me, the price is more about reaffirming the pecking order or seeing the 355 move up in the pecking order. The price doesn't matter as much if you don't plan to sell.

 

I guess I'm a hippie then? If I'm translating the above correctly