1985 400i 5 spd / Long overdue / 12k Service | Page 2 | FerrariChat

1985 400i 5 spd / Long overdue / 12k Service

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Paul C Cain, Nov 1, 2022.

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  1. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #26 Steve Magnusson, Dec 11, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2022
    OK, the problem is that they ran the leaders for the Z and Y labels to the wrong relays in that page 105 OM relay figure. The "tall" relay is "Y-timer for interior lights" -- which is item 75 on the OM schematic (note that the wire colors match your photo). It also explains why it is always "powered". Also, since you opened the door, it would actuate which is why it "clicked" (unactuated) when you unplugged it. Nothing to worry about as that's normal operation, and it would turn itself (and the interior lights) "off" after a short time after all the doors are closed.

    Your photo also shows that the Z-relay for starting is just completely missing (there's no relay socket for it) so how they connect the small B wire to the large B wire going to the starter solenoid is unknown.

    Yes, this would be a perfectly fine test to try.

    Also, no harm in trying the test that raemin suggested -- unplug the safety switch, turn the key "on" (audibly confirm the fuel pumps are running), and then just try starting from there. If the engine starts OK = another indication that the small B wire is not properly going +12V during starter motor cranking (or the ...101 relay isn't working)
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    To be frank K-Jet is quite straightforward and easy to fix. Back in the day, the early motronic were hard to tune, and the lag is even worse than a k-jet.

    I personnaly consider that this system was a good match for the 400: the fact that we have two systems does allow for twice less restriction in the airflow. Also the design of the engine bay does allow for a very clean routing of the intake (other Ferraris were not so well treated). At the end of the day, the 365 was delivering 320hp, compared to 315 for the 400i (and even 340 on the 412). Not bad for a car that pollutes significantly less.

    Modern injection could be an option, but the plumbing would just spoil the engine bay. A "412" upgrade (+4° of valve overlap, +4° of ignition timing, vacuum advance), is a much easier (and cheaper) way to gain a few hp. If you've got the budget, you can add oversize & higher compression pistons for "real hp".

    There is a Polish company that makes some k-jet to modern injection upgrade kits. Not cheap.
     
  3. Paul C Cain

    Paul C Cain Karting
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    @raemin
    I just disconnected the safety switch at the Airflow meter. Now I have pumps running (at ignition 'on' and cold start injectors clicking while cranking.
    But it didn't start.

    I tried to jump to +12 the small white wire. It actuates the starter, so full stop there.
     
  4. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    Just try to start the engine with the safety switch disconnected and the cold start injectors disconnected. In order to compensate for the lack of cold start injector, just push the accelerator pedal while cranking. Normally the car should start: even if one bank is faulty, the engine can start on 6 cylinders only.

    If it fails you would have to check the ignition. You did no try to jump start the car, did you? This kills the dinoplex...
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Then you lied, and the small B wire is going +12V during starter motor cranking ;). (The test was to run a jumper from the large B wire at the starter solenoid to the small B wire -- not a jumper from always +12V to the small B wire.)


    +1 -- if the fuel pumps are running, and it still won't start when the start motor is cranking = next step is to confirm/deny spark.

    Paul -- Has your car been "converted" for US importation and a frequency valve and aftermarket ECU added to the injection system? If it has, and that loses +12V power = that can also cause a lean condition. Can you post a picture of your engine bay?
     
  6. Paul C Cain

    Paul C Cain Karting
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  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I forgot that you had previously posted pictures, and we had already discussed that you don't have any US modifications (and are only missing the "bridge hose"). Since you report that the supply and control fuel pressures are OK, have to go back to it must be no spark if the fuel pumps are running, and cranks OK, but won't even fire at all (on a K-Jet without Lambda system).
     
  8. Paul C Cain

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    @Steve Magnusson Agreed. I am back to the ignition system now, after learning that I can run with the airflow meter safety switch disconnected. Tomorrow will be a deeper dive on the plug firing. Thanks for hanging in there......
     
  9. Paul C Cain

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    A massive thanks to @Steve Magnusson and @raemin for walking me through the gates of discovery this past week. Also thanks to @Teutonic (Porsche / CIS expert) for his hands-on help in strategizing next steps and helping with each one in implementation.

    I pulled all 12 plugs 48 hours ago. Also re-removed* the dist. cap and let it fully air dry, along with the combustion chambers. Then a new set of NGK plugs, gapped to 0.026''.

    *We had air blasted the cap on Sunday, it was moist on inside. Air dried it for 5 min, reassembled and it was still not starting. That was Sunday. That's when I took the dist. cap back off back off for a full airing out.

    This is the result.....

    https://studio.youtube.com/video/l8FlpA9njJ8/edit

    Thank you all!
     
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  10. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    You mean this video... (good to see another one ready for action).

     
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  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    You should replace the distributor seal: I suspect that yours was damaged by heat and does not provide a good seal any-more. Chances are that when they tried to clean the chassis from underneath, the water found its way in the tunnel where the distributor is buried.

    Given some water was in the distributor, you should also perform a thorough lube job: if you remove the rotor, you can see there is a hollow in the shaft. This cavity hosts a "wick" that should be filled with a generous amount of oil. This lubrication is essential to the proper advance of the timing.

    Replacing the seal is a pain, but the lube job is easy.
     
  12. Paul C Cain

    Paul C Cain Karting
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    Back on topic of completing the entire 12k mile service. The entire 12k service plan has been printed, blow up and mounted on foam core for quick reference and checking off completed items. Only 30 simple items. Here is the list. The car is now up in the air, wheels off. Calipers go out in the morning. Shocks are off.

    I received an estimate from Performance shocks in Sonoma for rebuilding the six Koni's. Leadtime is 2 to 3 weeks. Is there another preferred rebuilding on Koni shocks? Someone more familiar with the hydraulic leveling?

    I took the liberty of modifying the EMI shield on the distributor housing. The rear most 8mm bolt is very difficult to access inside this can. A small notch will make for an easy guide when reassembling with the new gaskets. (Thanks @raemin)

    There is a significant oil leak up front. I put two vials of UV liquid into the oil sump, then ran the car for 20 miles with two full heat cycles. Using the black light, tried to narrow down what the source was of the leakage. No luck so far, just confirmation of a well oiled lower frame rail and compressor. Hoping with more disassembly on the front of the motor the UV will reveal the source of leak.

    This thread will be the full 12k factory suggested service, plus:
    -caliper rebuilding
    -shock rebuilding
    -exhaust system
    -radiator service
    -whatever else is discovered


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  13. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Are you also going to have the master cylinder rebuilt? Also how about new brake hoses?
     
  14. Paul C Cain

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    @Ak Jim The PO has already finished the master cylinder. Glad you asked about the brake lines, as I got one shocking pic earlier today.

    Short answer is 'yes'. These brake lines where installed at the factory during the Regan administration. I cut them to gain access to the caliper bolts. The internal orifices'' were swollen and tiny. Here is a pic on just how original this example is! ;) Yikes!
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  15. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    I’m thinking about doing this work on my car this winter. Who is doing the rebuilding for you? I’d like to do all four on my car along with the master. Also what supplier are you using for the brake hoses? Thx, and good progress on your car. Post lots of pictures as the progresses.
     
  16. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    You are still on cohline braided oil hose between oil pump and oil cooler). These are hard to come buy unless you buy the whole 20m role. My guess is these are still the original ones. Could be your leaky culprits.

    Power steering can also be quite leaky.
     
  17. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
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    Throttle bodies and direct injection? That would be awesome.
     
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  18. Paul C Cain

    Paul C Cain Karting
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    Most likely Whitepost for the calipers. Superformance for the rubber brake lines.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    PMB Performance (https://pmbperformance.com) has a good history here of restoring Ferrari vintage brake calipers.
     
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  20. Paul C Cain

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    Hood came off this afternoon. The enabled the radiator out. It goes out in the morning to check the cleanliness of the core(s) tubes and resolder a few loose brackets. Disassembly was going swimmingly until I discovered that the suspension engineers never chatted with the electronics engineers re: the lower alternator servicing. Lower bolt cannot exit enough to remove the lower alternator. Had to remove the alternator bracket from the block. Got the a/c V belts off and was down to the last bolt, appreciating the super unique four tang specialty fastener holding the last bolt on the p/s pump bracket. Really? I read early F-chat discussion about this puzzle, enjoying the theory that this was to 'encourage' owners to get the dealer to do this service.

    Realizing the time investment to get to this level of disassembly, I am going to rebuild the p/s pump and both alternators. I only want to do this service once. Fuel filters when back in. Prior mechanic had replaced (1) of the two filters.
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  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #46 Steve Magnusson, Dec 26, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2022
    That is kind of strange place to use a ring nut as those are usually used on rotating shafts with large diameter threads of very fine pitch. That male thread does look like a very, very fine thread pitch for its diameter (so maybe they were worried about loosening) and you might not even be able to easily find a hex nut with that particular diameter/pitch combination. The best tool for removal/installation would be a "22mm ring nut socket", but, if it isn't tightened too crazy tight, you may be able to use a "22mm hook wrench" (although each individual hook wrench usually covers a ring nut diameter range -- like 20~25mm or 40-50mm, for examples) so you could try internet searching on those terms if you need a tool for it.
     
  22. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    All the nuts and bolts do have a thin thread pitch in this area. Also the triangular bracket is often cracked, so there must be quite some stress they wanted to adress.

    After all the original 365 only had a single alternator and a low volume AC pump, when they upgraded to twin alternator and from 7cc to 11cc compressor some additional stress came with these upgrades.

    My brother was deeply annoyed by the vibration and sound of its new york 210 compared to the original smaller Aspera.
     
  23. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Paul,

    As Steve mentioned, the best solution is a proper ring nut socket. However, if you are unable to find one promptly, you are in a hurry, and the nut is not too tight, you can fabricate one using a suitably sized socket and a die grinder.... or a mill...etc:



    I did this (die grinder approach) for the ring nut holding the steering wheel to the hub and it worked well. That said you really need to take your time making a custom socket, as if the fingers are tapered, etc then you run the risk of damaging the ring nut which will make removal significantly more difficult.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  24. Paul C Cain

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    Sam!
    Thanks for checking in. Nice job with your die grinder. I did remove this nut this morning with a more draconian method.;) (I was anxious to the P/S pump off to the rebuilder -today- as zero reassembly can occur unit that item is back).

    I can't imagine doing this service with the radiator in the car, or with the hood on. Is is just me or are all of these V belts a REALLY tight fit to get into position?
    Here is my ref. photo of belt positions on the crank hub.

    I've ordered the correct socket for reassembly. And that is one unique thread pitch 12mm x 1.0). I found this nut at Belmetric. I will keep you posted with the leadtime on the pump rebuild. Radiator when off this morning as well, curious to hear their assessment of the tube internals.
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  25. Paul C Cain

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    Here is the status of entire Phase I part of this service: (last image in this post)

    Excellent turn-a-round today with two key suppliers. Harbor Radiator in Costa Mesa, CA are very experienced in Vintage and Ferrari cooling systems. They only took two days to pressure test, clean and repair the original radiator. I generally do not let any supplier apply paint to finish parts. This radiator will get a two step process in refinishing. It came back with an excellent thermal / heat transfer health report. ;) This service including 'rod out' each of the cooling tubes with no obstructions reported. Repaired the lower mounting bracket to the inside (pull) fan housing.

    Next the high pressure line to the self leveling system looks great at first glance but is doomed if used further. See both pics. New Conti hose being fitted.

    Next is one of my favorite suppliers Steve at Parts Reborn in Orange CA. This is a extremely fine abrasive media is a controlled water pressure stream. What you are looking at is the original raw aluminum. It always leaves this very uniform "as cast'' finish. These guys are very popular with the Vintage BMW crowd. Worth a look at: https://partsreborn.com/
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