430 Manual conversion

I did not say all shops are bad. I'm sure most aren't. I'm just saying that more do sketchy work on these cars than most people would believe.

Again, if you want a car that's been professionally maintained all it's life, you are welcome to do so. This kit just gives people more options. I don't think that is a bad thing like some people are trying to make it out to be.

 

I could not find an address or phone number for your company on your website?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I’ve been watching this thread as an avid DIYer and with interest in this topic. I’ve been in aviation maintenance for over 40 years, which requires a much higher level of attention to detail than auto maintenance. I’ve had numerous instances where the “professional” technician has screwed up my car, requiring me to make the repairs. Like Lorenzo says, the conversion isn’t rocket science, and the Ferrari 430 isn’t a mysterious, complex mechanical being. It’s actually one of the easier cars that I’ve worked on.

My thoughts are more aligned with what imahorse eloquently stated. There’s room in this hobby for both perspectives and I get that some folks are only going to buy a car that’s been dealer maintained, but I would take a car that I’ve maintained over any dealer maintained car. I know there are other fastidious owners/maintainers such as myself.

 

I don't know you. I'm a buyer. Lots of Ferrari's are bought by people with little to no knowledge of Ferrari's, especially "budget" Ferrari's like the F430. How do you convince someone buying their first Ferrari from you in a hypothetical, that they should trust your maintenance over the dealer? Suppose this person's only experience with car buying and maintenance is with Toyota or Lexus or so forth.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I would definitely trust an avionics mechanic to maintain his car well, but let's say the other 98% of the buying public has no clue nor has any curiosity. When I was a teen, I worked at a men's clothing store. You'd be surprised at how many middle aged men would come in the store and ask me to basically put together for them an entire outfit that was tasteful. I was 19. You'd be surprised at just how many people have no curiosity to do basic things or have even rational logic. Most prefer people to make decisions for them. Anyone in this group doesn't fit that demographic, but this is a bubble. We are not reality in the larger world.

 

I don’t have any intention to ever sell as long as I’m vertical so I don’t care who trusts me and who doesn’t. I watch the 430s on BAT and service records/condition don’t seem to be a concern for a lot of buyers. When my 430 eventually goes up for sale it will be bought based on condition, a probable PPI, an FCA Annual Experience Platino, and the detailed maintenance records that I keep. The saying, “buy the seller” will apply in my case.

I get that you’re not going to be persuaded that no one other than EAG can do a quality conversion, but myself and others aren’t going to be persuaded that a quality DIY conversion isn’t possible.

 

I absolutely think others can do as good or a better job than EAG did. I'm just trying to explain why someone might choose a "brand" over some "dude" with wrenches. That's all. I think most people "buy the seller", but most don't do any homework so rely on "brand". BaT buyers are not the general public imho.

I believe both of us think the same, but I'm failing to get my point across to you that it's not about what either of us think or what we do.

 

To each their own. I would bet there is much more sketchy work in the DIY-crowd then on the professional scene. Not everyone is an airplane technician with 40 years of experience. The common DIY:er is average Joe that did some work on his Chevy and wants to save a buck or two by wrenching his Ferrari. He watched some Youtube videos and how hard can it be? The Ferrari market is a tough one and has no mercy for sketchy cars and cars with a sketchy history.

Again, it was no easy task for my shop and it took 60 hours, including pulling the tranny and having to troubleshoot some parts in order to understand how it all worked together (in tight contact with EAG). This is my experience and if there is some shop that does it in 40 hours from the first attempt then good for them. I would like to find a shop like that to give me that optimistic estimate with a big job they´ve never done before. I understand that the job amount has to be downplayed in order to make the DIY-kit more attractive but i feel that people are getting the wrong expectations.

 

I would give you more likes if I could. Based on what I witnessed with a firm very experienced in doing these conversions, its not a short job if its done correctly and as Trev360 noted, lots of stuff can go wrong and you can end up with a giant brick. There is an old saying in my area of the world, "don't trip over dollars to pick up nickels."

 

I don’t disagree with anything that’s been said previously- all legitimate perspectives. The only thing I would add is that whilst there is more immediate provenance in a conversion done by a reputable shop, there must come a point where the difference is negligible. I.e after a diy conversion has been driven reliably for 3 years / 10k miles, surely we can be comfortable that the installation quality can’t be that bad?

Obviously I’m biased, having done my 612 conversion myself on axle stands in my home garage. I had no instructions, but for the mechanical parts I was able to figure it out as I went*. I tried to document it all as best I could, and three years later everything still work’s flawlessly.

*Notably however, 360trev was of course indispensable when it came to sorting out the engine ecu’s.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Zed, I'm the guy who used to work on his Chevy, then small things on my Benz,s, Then my Maserati then my Ferrari. And now on my back on the floor of my garage I converted 2 cars. The first I drove for 3 years after flawlessly

 

Lorenzo, you're not the typical DIY'er.

 

I think this is a fair point.

 

But I think I am. I just progressively learned as time went on

 

You've learned over many years of working on F430's. You are a curious person, a cautious person and a deliberate person. Most people are none of these.

 

Well Thanks. I keep trying and learning. Now I've learned how to replace flamblocs and ball joints and ill be replacing them along with a kline exhaust when I get back to Florida

 

OK, so if I understand correctly, you can now buy a kit, that can be shipped to you anywhere (Europe, in my case) and obviously it is not rocket science for this to be installed, no matter of the time frame. However, as I can see it - the big issue is the ECU, which not many people can tune. Is there a definitive company, that I can ship the ECU, so they can tune it and then ship it back to me and am I missing something?

 

All good points.

Some DIY struggle trying to figure out how to put air in their tires, some rebuild Ferrari V12 engines in their garages. Most professional mechanics do excellent work, some dislike their jobs or are rushed to do it and will do a substandard work.

Those who lack sufficient DIY skills or want impressive paperwork, should bring a kit to a professional shop which specializes in exotic supercars to do the installation.

DrS kits allow gated manual conversion without removal of transmission (the only such solution in the industry), simplifying it for a DIY or removing about a 1/3 from a professional shop bill. And allowing the conversion in less than 40 hours for either a shop or a skilled DIY. Of course the transmission can also be removed (now or later after conversion) if clutch work is needed or if brake fluid based clutch hydraulics are desired.

I think any buyer of a converted car should also have a PPI done by a specialist, including removal of the carpeting to check the shift tower mechanism, removal of the underpan to check the actuator, checking the hydraulics etc regardless of what kit was installed and regardless of who did the conversion. High quality parts and high level of professionalism in the job can be recognized by skilled people. So can shoddy parts and shoddy workmanship. And that's how the value of a conversion should be judged.

Regarding comments about conversions in Europe - maybe costs are relatively higher comparing to USA. But also in USA almost everyone drives an automatic and Europe is the opposite. So time will show how many Europeans cars will get converted.

Happy New Year everybody !!!!!!

 

So 40 hours is estimated for the shortcut route without pulling the tranny and add 1/3 for the full conversion including TOB?

 

No. (Just math here, not an opinion). If we remove 1/3 of the time which includes transmission removal to arrive at 40 hours, we need to add 1/2 of 40 hours to arrive back at the full conversion including TOB (60h in this case).

40 hours is what DYI people report without transmission removal. But professional shops (and skilled DIY) may be able to do it faster with experience or slower if they take time to diagnose or repair other parts of the car "while there" like replacing engine mounts etc. They may also charge the standard shop time "by the book" of individual steps like e.g. F1 actuator removal, regardless of the actual time it takes them.

 

Did you have any skilled shop install one of your kits and how many hours did it take the first time?

 

I find it strange so many people dont drive there ferraris as they dont want it to loose value (im sure some have odo tampering), yet many want to manual convert it
In my eyes it would devalue it
Not because thats my opinion that it should but the market would reflect that

Id love carbon engine panels and diffusers on my car but dont want to devalue it

 

My 2007 Spider manual conversion just sold for $185k. I do think in some markets it might devalue it because of the culture. However, generally speaking, people that get manual conversions are drivers, not collectors. BTW, carbon engine panels were a factory option on F430's if that is what you have.

Another way to look at the manual conversion - The factory F1 system is aging and most need some repair/maintenance. Many will need complete rebuilds. You can spend anywhere from $5k to $20k to fix the F1 system. Or, you can convert to manual and never have to worry about it again. That was my rationale for converting mine.

 

I think we're beating a dead horse to death here. It's already been established that it takes 40 hours give or take.

 

Not a dead horse at all and far from established. I understand that your interest is to keep the numbers down. It would be interesting to see the real numbers for another shop that’s never done the conversion before.

 

Sorry but your incorrect. I have no interest in keeping numbers down. I'm simply stating my time in my conversions. It's already been established here how long it takes. 40 hours give or take. It certainly isn't 70 or 80 hours from my experience