I do find it a little strange that you keep questioning my posts... I've been totally honest and not talking the market up.. Only a couple of weeks ago I was close to finalising a deal on 53315 close to 8 million USD which fell through because the car was not grade A.and again you questioned the openest on the transaction, open transactions support the market... comments about gold in the boot are just not helpful Another car in Europe which I was going to inspect on the 2nd Jan chassis number 52471 for 6.3 million Euro.. 1300 KLM but again the history and provenance on the car is questionable I have email evidence from the final parties and the inspection report that confirm all the information I have given,.... you can believe it or not.. thats fine.. I'm just being forthcoming and open... there is no agenda or secret mission here.. its just fact finding. If your records or final information is not correct I am happy to send it to you so you can update your records The final sales price was north of 6 million if this is incorrect Joe please post some evidence to counter please .. as all the information I have substantiates this..
On final point, I am only posting the information that I have knowledge of .. if you have firm information of 57495 I would love to up date my records.. Given the information I have and paper trial, it would be very interesting as it would put in question the integrity and honesty which us laymen put into the most highly respectful Ferrari dealers in the world, and put simply you can not believe anything that you are sent or party to.. which plays a very sad and bleak picture for the brokers and dealers who trade high end Ferraris..
Paul, some of us have a healthy skepticism for anything that can't be verified, which is why we're trusted and used by many prominent collectors around the world, that said, if indeed you can substantiate these numbers you are claiming, please go ahead and email me said evidence you possess, of course, I'm open to amending my market database to accommodate your findings.
To be fair, and not saying this is the case with 57495, dealers & brokers, especially if they know they're speaking with a potential buyer, have an interest in perhaps inflating or exaggerating transaction prices, even if modestly and some (a lot? most?) will do that. That said, when 57495 transacted back in 2017(?), an otherwise nice GTO was what, mid $2s? A multiple of ~2.5X is a massive premium... though incidentally, supposedly inline with what it would take to pry it from the current owner, so who knows. Joe, to his credit, is not playing the "talk big numbers to a potential buyer game"... If you want further clarity, the previous owner is a member on FChat. For what it's worth - and I'm not sure if you're just approximating or not - 52471 has been shown recently to have just under 1,500km, not the 1,300 in your post.
100 % agree its important for the market to understand open and honest transactions, I feel 57495 will always be highlighted as an high outliner and draw some scepticism which is fine., I was contacted a couple of years ago now and the owner of 57495 wanted around the same money back for a sale. with regard to 52471, 1496 was the record I have, I assume this is the same as your records, it was a long day yesterday and i should have referenced back, thanks for the correction.
What is very scary and very unfortunate is that these recent offerings, both have very different accounts of the provenance of their GTO's, wether this is the owners not knowing or having not done any due diligence.. its just makes finding genuine cars even more of a mine field Both 53315 being sold as 257 miles from new and 52471 as 1496 klm.. It is quite amazing that as Marcel has said they must be driving in reverse.
Firstly, ALWAYS talk to the actual owner and not to any dealers or brokers who automatically promise you the moon. Secondly, personally inspect the car AND the warranty and service book and all the stamps and dates and odo statements. Check also all invoices and service records. Personally!! I have seen several faked warranty booklets for 288 GTO's. At least three. Really. Thirdly, if owners are unwilling to pay for proper due diligence and homework by a serious expert, you as a potential buyer should be willing to do so. If not, then don't be surprised. It's that easy. Marcel Massini
Since 57495 was brought up ... It's worth noting that 57495 was under the care of one Ed Wettach for several years (decades), as the original dealership for the car, before he and I reached an agreement to transfer custodianship. Ed has since left us ... but a finer gentleman you could not meet (Ed, I mean ... certainly not me). A VERY significant part of that transaction was a detailed inspection by Marcel Massini (as he wisely advises, above). Why do i mention? Simple: people matter more than cars.
A few comments about due-diligence, brokers & dealers, etc. As everyone knows, even if you have an existing relationship with a broker or dealer you trust, you're supposed to corroborate the information you're being given, that's due-diligence, and even with basic due diligence amongst the current resource network you can quickly establish if any GTO's provenance is questionable before you waste too much time. That said, it's worth noting that it all depends on the people you are dealing with, and wether they have both knowledge & integrity, meanwhile not all brokers & dealers routinely give erroneous information, that notion isn't the reality, similarly, not all owners share correct information. That's always a great idea, however, that's not always possible as some owners for privacy reasons simply do not want to be spoken to or meet potential buyers, in this scenario though, the dealer or broker can arrange for the car and all it's ancillaries including original warranty book to be sent to a neutral place such as the local authorized Ferrari dealer where buyer can personally inspect both the car and all it's ancillaries in person, we routinely do this. In my 17 years on FChat I have a well-established reputation for resisting the talking-up of markets, I'm sure, much to the chagrin of people who want the market talked up, it is my belief that a broker should be a resource for impartial & accurate information where the market is concerned. They certainly do, as I often say to my sons, "we're in the people business", and people are very different from one another so it's an asset to know the different players in the market (both owners & dealers) because their methods and what you can expect from them varies vastly from person-to-person, IMO that's a key part of due diligence.
6 miles in the past few decades! By the way, that's a replacement speedometer affixed during the USA DOT & EPA compliance confirmation process, in fact it's actually a USA 328 speedometer, the entire Veglia Borletti unit, and not just the fascia with the speed calibration. You can tell because, firstly, it's only calibrated to 180 mph whereas the USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer fascia should be calibrated to 200 mph, secondly, the speedometer needle is the thin white unit with an orange stripe, whereas the USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer fascia uses the original 288 GTO speedometer needle which is thick and all-orange. There are other details that confirm it's a 328 unit such as the calibration spacing. Here below is a 328 speedometer as affixed originally to 328 n° 74581, which compares 57495's speedometer you posted, and that of the USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer which we typically see. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Another original USA 328 speedometer from n° 77353 just as a further reference. Image Unavailable, Please Login
There are 2 types of USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer fascias, version 1 has kph calibration in smaller font inserted. As is typical of these USA replacement speedometer fascias, the rectangular mileage apertures are often slightly askew as they relate to the travelled mileage displayed and the edges of the apertures show the raw cut process. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Version 2 of the USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer fascia does not show kph calibration in smaller font. Image Unavailable, Please Login
By the way, we did a test of a 288 GTO which had a USA replacement 288 GTO mph speedometer fascia on the freeway using mile markers, and confirmed that the odometer was still in kilometers. What you really want to see is the factory original 288 GTO kph speedometer indicating 320 kph as below, personally, I also want to see that the gauges are clean & clear and all the instruments in the car appear nicely maintained. Image Unavailable, Please Login
FWIW for just £120 each there's a resource that will provide mph or kph speedometer fascias. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Great series of posts, Joe. I often look for the edges around the odometer window, even just for curiosity sake.
Indeed, with GTOs, or in fact any other Ferrari Supercar, provenance is much more than ownership history and a set of service records, I've seen a number of 288 GTOs which are highly touted but have questionable status. Besides the speedometer and speedometer fascia issues, it is hilariously easy to disconnect the speedometer cable on a GTO thereby concealing the real miles travelled, I'm aware of at least a handful of GTOs where this has happened. A very careful inspection of the car's overall condition in certain key places plus corroboration of it's maintenance records from day one will reveal the true picture. Moral of the story, if you or anyone you know is looking to buy a GTO, my job is to look after you by saving you time and a small fortune, by keeping you away from the wrong car and getting you into a great car, but you know all that already. Some of them look like someone's had a go with an exacto knife on the kitchen table!
I remember once inspecting a 288 in Colorado, seller claimed 2'000 kms, in reality it was 20'000 kms and it came with a faked service/warranty booklet........ I had a similar experience in Zurich, Switzerland, also a 288 and also a faked service book. Marcel Massini
The only time a 308 has anything in common with a 288 GTO is when one is sacrificed to make a 288 GTO replica
Epic Eighties. Anyone looking for a genuine 288 GTO priced fairly with the fabulous red/orange seat inserts contact me directly. Image Unavailable, Please Login