I read this regarding ECU tuning and bigger fuel injectors: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/142744807/ Sounds like the way to go!
Confirms what I was saying about the fuel system being maxed. Its just the result of "all they had" at the time they built these engines. Nowadays there are so many more options for fuel injectors and ECU's. To fiddle with some ideas with the old antiquated Motronic facotry system using the factory injectors is a waste of time, you will not achieve much more power, and if you do its going to be quite lean at WOT...and this is not good. The good thing about doing aftermarket ECU and injectors is you'll be able to choose the fuel you want to use, then you'll be able to improve the timing map and fuel map to optimize what the engine is capable of. This is the route I am going when the engine comes out for the next cambelt service.
Reacting to different posts here 1) The FPR s of the normal and the 119H engine are the same (147291) So fuel pressure is the same 3.0 bars I plan to install an adjustable one in my H engine Just looking for the right connectors 2) a 348 cannot keep up with a 355 or 360(CS) 3) Easy plenum mod: install a spacer under the plenum of the 348
I wonder where the idea came from that the Fuel pressure was increased on the H engine? I also noticed there is only one part number.... Urban myth?
There was PR161 and PR298 used. PR298 was the later one. PR161 has the barb fitted for hoses and clamp. I recall the 3.8 bar was used sometime in 92 and with the spider starting at engine 27843. The difference was ECU map and Exhaust and they increased fuel flow through pressure as opposed to larger injectors. Everything prior was 3.0 bar. Ricambi show that both, 3.0 and 3.8 Bar FPRs, p/n 137960 & 147281 respectively, are for 348 89-92 & Mondial T. In any event its stamped on the FPR, read it to be sure. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ah so there we go, I am sure I'd come across this for sure when I was buying parts for my 348 but couldn't remember and didn't want to start an rumors. I dont think I would up the fuel pressure without getting the car on the dyno to see if the AFR is going to be correct.... Maybe thats all Ferrari did? Who knows.... Maybe they go with the Motronic 2.7 ECU's? In any case, when it comes to messing with the fuel system and trying to get more power, you really need to get the car on a dyno to see what your base line is and then make the changes and see how its affected...
Most 348's have Motronic 2.7 ECU's. Only early ones and the MondialT had the 2.5 if I recall. I have a Oct 1990 car and its 2.7. They changed the ECU mapping on the cars with the 3.8. To your point, best to mess with AF with a dyno.
OK, I've got some interesting progress to report. The past week I've been in contact with a few specialists. One plainly replied 'we don't do Ferrari', another said the car was too old to mess with. So it was looking grim, but then I found a company that has both the experience and passion for doing projects like this. Went there this morning for a visit. It was a treasure trove of (old) Italian supercar tech. Cars they were working on included a Maserati Shamal and a 456M. Of course, a 348 ECU just happened to be laying around. Also tons of custom fabricated stuff, like ITB's, wiring harnesses, 3D printed ECU brackets, hoses etc. Anyway, after looking at the car and discussing various options - where I shared the information from this post - the following plan was made: 1. Get the car in for a proper engine out service. Check the state of seals, hoses, basically everything around the engine, and replace the cambelt, the stuff the maintenance book mentions, and whatever else needs replacing. 2. Get & fit the F119H plenum and associated parts. Basically convert the engine to F119H(-ish). 3. With the car fresh and in 'factory spec', put it on a dyno, see how it goes and get a baseline. 4. Mount and program a new ECU (he uses Haltech) that uses the current wiring loom 5. Do some more dyno testing with the new ECU to find out where optimizations can be made 6. Based on the results from 5, modify/update parts. Obvious candidates are the fuel injectors, MAFs, spark coils. We also talked about converting to 2 airboxes vs. 1, to get better airflow, but that will alter the appearance of the engine bay considerably, so I'd have to warm to this idea first. Car will go in 2 weeks from now. In the meantime, the required parts will be obtained. I have to say I'm very happy with this plan. With using a new ECU a lot of possibilities open up, but since it'll be using the original loom, you can clip the old ECU back in to make it original again. Then, having 2 plenums makes it possible to modify one of them while having the other one as a backup/revert to original. Other parts will be swapped based on the dyno runs, which I think is the best approach, as you'll be swapping them based on data and a solid plan rather than theories.
This is a solid plan. Excellent approach, I think you'll get a great result. My guy uses Link ECU's, so we'll be running one of those. The Base line on the dyno is essential, and like you say, using the data to make the changes. I am hopefully going to be getting mine on the dyno in the next few weeks to get the baseline. (even though hes my friend, he keeps bumping me to the back of the queue!!). You wont need use the MAF's with the new ECU, Map sensor and TPS is all you need. But your guys will sort that out, they'll probably already know that. On the Link you can set it up to look at the O2 sensors for Lean cruise and light throttle, so we intend tossing the MAF's... I think you'll get the gains you're after this way, nice one!!
All the f119s already have forged pistons. If you want higher compression, you can switch to the 10.8:1 pistons from the later cars. If you are looking for titanium connecting rods, you can use rods from the F355 or 360. They are forged Ti64AlV and made by Pankl. The difference between the two is fastener arrangement. The weight difference from steel to titanium alloy rods is substantial if you have heavier weight code rods. Its likely you would save over 1.5kgs depending on how heavy the steel rods were. The centre to centre rod length used in the F131 is almost identical to the F119 steel rods, differing by being ~0.02? mm longer at most with the bottom range spec being the same. This would increase your compression by a few hundredths at most. The rod bearing bores are identical and bearings can be swapped between the two. The bearing clearances used in the 119 and 131 are slightly different but dimensionally the bearings are interchangeable. The only difference is a much larger gudgeon pin used on the titanium rods. This can be worked around with a custom bushing. PM me if you want more info on the bushings. The crankshafts in 119, 129, and 131 engines all use the same crank pin diameters and are once again dimensionally identical except for weight and stroke length (splines are not present on the f131 crankshaft). This is why the rods can be substituted. Since they're all flat plane, no rebalancing is required due to piston or rod changes. Most later car parts can be used on earlier cars as this is the same engine family.
Yes, like that. Only I would not go for the red hoses with script on them, but have them look like they could be OEM, ie. black with matte/crackled finish.
Yes, already discussed this, but decided to do 'first things first' He thought it would be cool to still have the MAFs there but get ones from a salvage or something, and make them hollow. So from the outside they would look like MAFs while there isn't actually anything inside. This would retain the 'stock' look, though I don't think I'd mind to lose the MAFs entirely and fill the gap with a bit of hose finished OEM style (black with matte/crackled finish). And taking it further, might as well go to 2 airboxes as pictured above. But we'll decide that when we'll get there
You'll likely need to open up the throttle bodies a bit and port the insiide the plenum. There are threads on this out here. I think a few cars have gotten to 330hp or so. Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I like the idea of hollowing out the MAF's to retain original look, that would be a tidy option. I have also seen a few 348's locally here in New Zealand with 355 (2.7) air boxes, it does look good, and obviously better air flow...
First things first, Base Line, then work from there. I have never seen any dyno data from the people who claim you need to open the throttle bodies up. Is the 330hp an actual dyno figure or just an estimate? All these things will become apparent as some time is spent on the dyno.
I ask that because I never saw any in the posts I read about it... Also depends on the dyno and whether its a rolling road or hub type, calibration, what mode its being used in and so forth. We'll see soon enough though.
Tbs are a bottle neck, want more in then need a wider pipe, its not going to move faster getting in so need wider path. Sent from my SM-G990U using FerrariChat.com mobile app
To know if there are intake restrictions, start with key on/not running map (manifold pressure) kpa. Log a wide open throttle run and see how much (if any) pressure drop you have from atmospheric starting point to redline. Whatever drop you measure, go from the plenum, down the line to start of inlet tract. May be throttle bodies, or air filters or just all bends/restrictions added up. (and may be insignificant/really nothing) If you did this on a dyno, now do it on the street/track and see how much ram air effect changes it. If you find pressure drop to be near zero or insignificant, increasing the size of anything ahead of the plenums does not have a high probability of helping much.
This is great, it should yield results wiothout breaking the bank. Will be interested to see results before and after. Not much to do with timing unfortunately but still should be good to see results and what they actually do in the end. ECU and injectors have been long talked about. Guys here have posted turbo conversion with aftermarket ecu's etc but not details in terms of the connection's. I believe there are adapters that fit the current ECU harness eliminating making a whole new one custom.
If someone was going to do rods, pistons, TB's, intake, ECU, injectors, dyno tuning, on and on.....why not just install a 355 engine? Has anyone done the swap?
