VP Racing C12 Fuel

Please do not apologize. There is no need for an apology. Your info was fine, so no worries. I was just suggesting that if we want to discuss the merits of using chokes or not, or carb design, doing it in a different thread might be a good idea. Your input is always appreciated!

 

ok, understand
but you have written in your post:

......Difference between Weber and SU carbs? I don’t know.......

and so I wanted to explain

 

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

 

I'd guess all of the new hoses are ethanol compatible from the restoration. NOS Countach hoses, if you could find them, would probably too old to be safely used, and anything made in the last decade would almost certainly be ethanol compatible. You shouldn't need more octane than today's premium can provide. I'd go with ethanol-free pump gas that is designed for passenger cars, for the slight performance benefit. Although I have no information or experience with race fuel, I think race oil is not good for passenger/long-term use because they omit some of the additives that aren't needed for racing but are needed for long-term passenger car use. @JohnMH 's Ducati story is pretty scary, seems like it would much better to use passenger car fuel, especially for long-term storage concerns.

 

I don’t think anyone with right mind or concerns for safety of their own and that of their prized possession would attempt to install (or retain) belts, hoses, tires, etc older than 10 years, unless the said possession is intended (reduced to ?) purely for absolute, static display with fuels, oils or other chemicals etc, stored in them.

 

Was it mentioned if the engine was originally designed for leaded fuel? Are the valves and seats hardened? New fuel lines are probably ethanol safe, but if the engine needs leaded fuel, may I suggest 100ll avgas? Can be bought from a local airport.

 

Edit:

 

It's a Quattrovalvole. It went into production long after unleaded was mandated in the USA.

 

Won't go into detail here, but several people in the industry have adviced to steer clear of 100LL on classic cars. And what comes to alcohol, it is pretty lame stuff compared to many solvents used in various fuel mixtures.

 

Correct, but it’s specifically a Quattrovalvole Carbureted car which spent its entire life in Italy. I’m sure that it was originally developed with leaded fuel as the standard.

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It’s getting much tougher to buy avgas without an airplane. Not impossible…but much tougher.

 

in germany we have still additive for those cars needing leaded fuel. I use this in my BB 512 koenig and had never problems. except the fuel prices. short ago 1 ltr ( not gallon ) 2,20 €
some customers with jaguar and MG also use this without problems regarding valves and seats

 

Lead is not the issue, GM started putting in hardened valve seats in 1971 (mot sure when Lamborghini started, but definitely by 1984).

Rather than buying race fuel, just remove the ethanol by adding water. Look it up on youtube. May take a little effort. Or buy a kit.

www.ethanil.co.uk

 

Here is the real story on Avgas. Much of this is paraphrased from my friend Jay Ross, the owner of Applied Chemical Specialties, makers of No-Rosion and supplier of many of the additives to race fuel companies and major automotive chemical retailers. This should explain why Avgas is not a good idea for automotive use. Everybody here is making this far too difficult. Go back and read my earlier post. If you can find non-ethanol pump premium gas, you will be good to go in our older classic cars.

The most common version of Avgas is LL100, which stands for “low lead 100 octane”. It contains 0.5 grams per liter of tetraethyl lead. While good for octane, it’s bad for lead deposit formation. Tetraethyl lead naturally degrades to form lead oxide when it is burned. In reality, it is this oxide that provides the octane boost. The problem is that lead oxide exists as a solid up to about 1650°F. With the exception of some racing engines, cylinder walls rarely exceed this temp. To prevent lead oxide deposits, ethylene dibromide is blended in Avgas LL100. It reacts with lead oxide to form lead bromide, which is more volatile, becoming a gas at around 475°F. This ensures that lead oxide is converted to gaseous form, and exits the AIRPLANE ENGINE via the exhaust. But will it also convert to a gaseous form in a automobile engine? NO. Most automobile engines don’t achieve cylinder wall temps this high while driving on public roads, which means lead oxide deposits will form. These deposits are CORROSIVE and damage valves, valve guides and seats and cylinder heads. Because corrosion inhibitors in Avgas are aluminum-specific, the do not protect cast iron cylinder heads or cylinder liners and of course, they ruin catalytic converters.


Also, Avgas is formulated to run at altitude, where oxygen levels are low, air temps are low, and atmospheric pressures are low. It has a low Reid Vapor Pressure of 5.8-7.2 psi. This allows Avgas to remain a liquid at high altitude, thus preventing vapor lock in airplane engines. It is NOT formulated to run at ground level.


Avgas is formulated for large-bore, long-stroke airplane engines that operate at consistently low rpm. This allows refiners to formulate with a high aromatic content. This creates problems with automobile engines. Its slower burn rate negatively impacts throttle response, and creates issues with part-throttle drivability and cold starts. Its lower specific gravity requires rejetting of carbs to get the air-fuel ratios correct again. Also, this aromatic can damage rubber components in automotive fuel systems causing leaks and failures.

 

Just to clarify the post by DWR46. Avgas is not tested the same way as non-Avgas gasolines. Avgas is tested according to ASTM D 910. These are "aviation lean" and "aviation rich" numbers. 100LL is "aviation lean". Older versions of lean and rich were blue 100/130 and the old military purple 115/145.

Avgas does not use AKI or (R+M)/2 as street gasolines in the USA and Canada nor RON as used in much of the world. The ASTM D 2699 test refers to the Research Octane Method (RON) ASTM D 2700 refers to the Motor Octane Number (MON).

Avgas 100LL tested via ASTM D 2700 is a minimum of 99.6 MON. Let's just call it 100 MON. The delta for most gasolines between MON and RON is about 10 points. Therefore, Avgas 100LL AKI or (R+M)/2 is 105 or 110 RON.

 

Great info. These are the kind of issues you would never notice as it was happening if you were running that gas, but that would have significant negative impact long-term. Even when you eventually experienced issues, you'd just think it's normal. There are several posters in the other thread in the general "Ferrari Discussion" sub-forum saying they run Avgas, but they likely would not notice these issues either (one poster says the car eats spark plugs on Avgas, so that may be a sign). For the OP's concern of using what is safest for the car, it is very likely safest to use passenger car fuel that is specifically engineered for passenger car use.

The damage of E10 is overstated for most circumstances -- I have use E10 in a 60's car for 15+ years with zero issues despite being stored in the winter (with Sta-bil added over winter). I'd definitely run non-ethanol if it was available, but it is not available in our area. My feeling is that non-ethanol passenger car fuel would be best for the OP. I also think E10 would have zero issues since it is an 80's car with the engine fully refreshed. Using anything else, that is designed for a very different purpose, is likely to be worse for the car and likely to achieve the opposite of what the OP is trying to achieve.

 

One must also be careful about some higher octane gas being sold by some service stations. Some retailers may use a shortcut to boost octane of their standard product they sell as a "high octane" fuel. By adding Toluene to their regular fuel they raise the octane and their profits. Toluene, (methylbenzene) is a very powerful rubber solvent and can cause problems in fuel systems. When I asked a tanker driver if the dealers do this, he confirmed that some do! One cannot easily tell if Toluene has been added, but if fuel pump or hose leaks are detected soon after a fill up, this may be a cause. (especially in older cars)

 

JCR gave a detailed explanation of another facet of Avgas, in that the octane "tests" for automotive fuel and aviation fuel are NOT the same. 100 octane Avgas is not the same octane rating as 100 octane automotive gas. Thank you JCR.

Peterp also mentions not having problems with 10% ethanol. I also have never had any problems with this fuel (even stored over the winter) in Central Illinois. Apparently our government mandated blends are not hard on fuel systems. However, in Phoenix, the standard fuel there will barely last three weeks in our collector cars without starting to deteriorate. Luckily, in Illinois, I now have access to non-ethanol premium fuel and switched everything over about two years ago.

 

Dyke has a good point about AZ fuels, I have had a couple of bad tanks of this stuff. AZ terminals have two pipe lines to purchase from, one from TX and one from CA. They choose between them for price and one never knows what you get. Costco and Walmart bid at the terminals for the best price for each batch, and one gets what they get! Keep the tank low and fill only what the trip can use, plus Stabil each time.

 

We have lots of boutique pump gasolines across the USA. This is mandated by the EPA. See the .pdf This is the newest I found.

 

I buy VP small engine fuel by the 5 gallon jug for small engines on my farm. I just keep it in one of my shops. It is heated and air conditioned (most of the summer) but I feel that’s really neither here nor there in an automotive application.

Say you have 15 gallons to put in your classic car and the tank only takes 13. I’d think you could burn through those two spare gallons and put it in to your car rather quickly during the driving season. My 5 gallon containers usually take me over a year to burn through and I’ve never once had a problem in a really finicky chainsaw carburetor.

I will attach a photo of how the jugs are sealed. Before being opened they are air tight without question. After being opened they still have a threaded cap to keep vapors in. Despite smoking tons of cigarettes in the shop and the absurd amount of grinding sparks I haven’t been blown up yet.

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This is very useful information. Thank you for chiming in and sharing your knowledge!

 

Just a quick thank you for all those who added their thoughts.

 

Thank you again for all the information. It’s been very helpful. In addition to all the information provided here and in the thread I posted in the general discussion section, I have also spoken with a number of trusted individuals, such as my restorer, my technician, other owners with premium vintage cars with weber carburetors, etc. I believe this fuel from VP provides what I’m looking for:

https://vpracingfuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/MS98L-Spec-Sheets_100419A-4.pdf

 

^ price per gallon?