812 Replacement Rumors

Surely the point of synthetic fuel is to offer an option, I.e. allow a small number of ICE cars to be produced and meet the requirement? You wouldn’t waste any on a Toyota Prius, but fuelling a V12 Ferrari would be worth it. The cost will be extortionate but then, so is the price of the car. The legislation is to be reconsidered every two years leading up to the ban for adjustments because they know new technologies will emerge and that EV is not a full solution for various reasons - including that it is not net CO2 zero like a synthetic fuel.

Lithium EV, Hydrogen, synthetic fuels, solid state batteries - they are all likely to play a part to some degree and that degree will depend on their state of development by 2035.

The legislation also talks about exemptions for producers of less than 10,000 units. Therefore even if Ferrari didn’t meet the criteria others will, so ICE will continue. I’m not clear on whether the 10,000 units rule means worldwide production, European production or European sales. The way European law works is that restraint of trade is heavily protected against. Therefore should it matter if 10,000 are produced in Europe and another 10,000 produced outside? I suspect not. So the first and second options probably don’t apply. If production of over 10,000 units in Europe was an issue, it would suddenly become feasible for Ferrari to build some vehicles in the US for example. That only leaves ‘production of over 10,000 units but sales in Europe less than 10,000 units’? That is the situation now. It seems likely that Ferrari will be able to find a way to not have to give up ICE completely, though they would still need to meet the Euro VII regulation onwards. Don’t underestimate this, it will be hard. I just don’t see that Ferrari will be EV only by 2035.

 

Not today !
My answer is abrupt, but that's the way it is.
And if 167 exists, it's almost a miracle... you escaped an 812 Modificata

 

We are heading towards March.
Is F167 expected for... settembre?
It's time for a mule to appear with the definitive panels in disguise.

 

I know you have made your feelings clear about the current Ferrari products but you should at least be aware that few of the younger generation think that way. I have many 20-30 year-olds in my extended family. Without exception they love the current cars we have at least as much as the older ones in our garage. We also know all or most of their friends (now talking about many young people - we have a large family) same view. They love the new cars. When I tell them that not all ferrari people think the 812, F8 or SF90 are nice they think I’m joking. After years they still don’t believe me and think I’m winding them up!

 

I believe you, and I have the opposite effect around me, including those who manufacture them...but current cars are still in a compromise.
To see if Ferrari will find 15,000 buyers for post 2030 cars, or digitization and electrification will be complete... Personally, I don't think so, but it doesn't matter... and if it appeals to the new young clientele, so much the better ...but above all that she avoids delving into the brand's past or else her judgment will be changed... .
After 167 Ferrari will be "totally" another brand where all those who have followed its evolution throughout history will no longer find their interest.
Bugatti's recent speech on digital screens is revealing.
A Ferrari in theory is not a low-cost playstation, and yet screens and haptic controls have to be recycled endlessly to maximize profits...
The main factor in a Ferrari is emotion...and the less emotion you have, the more it is compensated by absurd performance on the open road...

 

You may not like the newer cars, but I definitely do. And they START every time.[emoji6]

 

Totally agree with you from an emotional standpoint. I'm approaching it more from a design standpoint. I don't hate the new ones, and I love lot of the older models as well. I tire of the 812 hatred, though everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as they know it is not the gospel. Some don't know that...

 

Synthetic fuels require significantly more energy to produce than they yield. Financially infeasible, entirely impractical, impossible to scale.

 

Yup.

And get rid of the damned electric steering!

Me, I'll take buttons over smudges & finger prints all day long.

Sadly, what some perceive as progress really t'isn't. It's only change and not for the better.

 

I don’t think day355 is saying he doesn’t like the current cars. Who can say that a TDF or a Competizione are not great Ferraris?
Day355 is saying that current Ferrari management are more focused in their EV future than producing a next generation V12 model. And that is true because Ferrari have no other choice and time is running short
Two years ago we thought that we’d get a new V12 in the next round of Ferrari models. The new V12 was canned, then the F167 was rumored to be canned and in the end we will get it but with the old engine. We also expected a LaF replacement with a V12 and many people here now expect a V6TT in the next hypercar

Whether we like it or not the future Ferrari will be different. Perhaps very very good, but it will derive emotions from different sources. Those of us who still enjoy the sound and thrill of an ICE V12 better hold on to our cars!

Btw the market direction is quite telling. One year before the launch of the LaF selling Enzos was not easy. Today LaF are fetching big prices even though the next model is a year away



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I’ll take buttons over touchscreens as well but not the Ferrari “sticky” buttons they were so good at making up until a few years ago.


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It would have be so easy (relatively)for Ferrari to take the LaF platform and do the SP3 one better by placing updated batteries and motors from the SF90 and the maxed out V12 which can then have been used on the F167


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Vertimass

 

I think that this current time of motor vehicle manufacturing will be seen as the absolute golden years of the ICE engine.

If Ferrari makes the F167 in Hybrid and people don't like this, then they have the option to buy plenty of great Ferrari models including the 550, 575, 599, F12, F12 TDF, 812, 812 GTS, 812 Comp and then to hold on to these cars to enjoy for as long as they want to keep driving ICE cars.

Just because we are approaching the end of an era doesn't mean that we still can't enjoy these cars.

 

But I am sure most bureaucrats won’t stop at production. Soon it will be a certain maximum mileage per year allowed, then no weekends and no city centers followed by the inevitable outlawing of ICE cars.
It may not be in my lifetime but you never know as the far leftist is completely and totally without forgiveness and are totally and completely about control. It’s their way or the the veritable highway. Dystopian future will be about subjugating the masses and Ferrari owners do not fit the narrative.



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I think part of the issue is that even amongst us buyers, we are split.
There are those who go hard on Ferrari for the latest n greatest speed, tech, glam, high end lifestyle, etc, etc
Then there are those who go soft on Ferrari because sepia toned “romance”. Day355 is obviously one of the second types, whilst Vigna has been brought in to drive the company towards the demographics of the first type.

Now, me personally, I’m steeped in the mythology of the 50s/60s. Jaguar v Ferrari down Mulsanne. Vanwall & Cooper v “those bloody red cars”. A time when men blazed their dreams into the future as fast as they could to escape a fairly ****ty recent past.
Where are those future dreams now? If anything we are sold a constant diet of worrying about the future. We are all doomed. We are bad ppl. We are killing the planet. We hate each other. Progress, the future is bad bad bad, etc etc etc.
How on earth are you supposed to be excited and dream for the horizon when that is the constant message, every day, from every angle, about everything? What the hell are you selling and to whom?

I don’t hate batteries, digitisation, electrification. I don’t hate the future, or it’s tech but for the love of all things 4 wheeled…give me something dream about! Make it soar! Make a product that says something beyond “I’m a conveyance”.
Scaglietti, Farina, Enzo, Lyons, Sawyer, David Brown, Shelby - they didn’t work 9-5 just to exist. Norm Dewis didn’t hammer the E-Type across to Geneva to put it on the stand in the morning because he was flogging washing machines.

Give me something to fcuking dream about!

 

I have considered this and I personally believe that when the main stream mass are using electric cars, the government won't care about 5% of cars being petrol power as it will not be a contributing factor to the environment.

Just my opinion.

 

I say go with the flow.

I own a Taycan Cross Tourismo Turbo S and I love the absolute wheels out of it. One of the best cars I have ever owned.

It has it's time and place for use and I love being able to have to option to choose this when I want. I just wish it would go 500 miles instead of 190 miles!

I am also looking forward to the new F167 in V12 or V12 Hybrid..... On the other hand a V6 would annoy the crap out of me and I would not buy one. I would then just go get another glory ICE car..... 599 GTO or perhaps a 458 Speciale.

My ultimate would be a 250 SWB. The character and romantic nature of these cars are something to behold!

 

New sales within the EU.

That's only your opinion.
We are the same age, more or less, mid 40s The 348 was a mess, the 355 was really good, but the 296 operates on a much higher plane. Being stuck in the '90s is amusing. Reminds me of people who were saying that the best Ferraris were the ones built in the '60s...

 

I don’t think you can say the 296 is on a “higher” plane, just a different plane. Is the 296 faster than a Speciale? Yes, of course it is. In terms of exotic car driving experience is it “higher” than a Speciale? Absolutely not IMO. Some will prefer the 296, and some like me will prefer the Speciale. The same can be said for people who love the 355. And there is a reason why ‘60s Ferraris transact for millions and tens of millions of dollars. Of course a large part of that is that they are commodities, but a large part of the love for them is also their special driving gestalt. If you handed me the keys to a 296 or a 275 GTB 4 cam and said they were the same price and long term value I’d pick the 275 every single time….every single time. I’d also pick the 275 if it was just be loaned to me for an afternoon driving in the country and there was no value proposition.

 

Depends on what you want from a car. The 296 is the pinnacle of modern supercars. I like it very much. But I still prefer driving my Dino…Slow, smelly, uncomfortable and always unforgettable!


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I also own a Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo and agree with you, I love it. The reasons are pretty simple and specific to my expectations for a larger grand touring car.
1. Instantaneous and seemingly unlimited accereration
2. The smoothness of acceleration without any shifting
3. The quietness offered during acceleration from both the lack of an ice as well as lack of wind noise.

The things that can use improvement are:
1. The overall body structure does not feel ridgid and creaks while going over bumps
2. It's still a long and heavy car and you can sense that in spirited driving...still 7:30 Nurburging says a lot.

So, it all depends on what you want out of your car on any given day and time. As a DD, I'll take the Taycan...for special nights out, etc., ice like 812..for outright fun and performance probably Hybrid like SF90.

 

Definitely a matter of horses for corses and Electric cars have their place for sure.

 

And yet, it seems that "the market is always right..." so I invite you to take a close look at the desirability values of these cars that you call old $, and which if it hadn't been the myth, Ferrari wouldn't wouldn't sell 1000 copies of his 296...