Ferrari 360 major service / camshaft question

You will certainly want to do a compression & leak down test when you are done with this, that's for sure. It would be wise to listen to Rifledriver.

 

I don’t think I would have blocked rifledriver…

 

I very politely suggested seeking professional help, as did others. Your reply was to be an ass hole.

I invite all to reread the thread.

But sadly this place is full of the same. I'd invite any one to drop by the shop and say same face to face. Read the current thread on 360 CS transmission oil if other examples are needed.


Snarky indeed. Pot...meet kettle.

 

To be frank, I've played first with my "cheap" Renault Alpine before dropping the cylinder head of my v12. Starting with a simple engine is a safer (cheaper) way to get familiar with a cylinder stopper, a degree wheel and a leak-down tester.

But even if you can drop your everyday car cylinder head in your backyard (as I do), trust the people here: the italian engine is not in the same league in terms of complexity (yours is even worse than mine).

As far as the 12 is concerned, I disasemble myself the car in my mechanic's garage (this is not free!) . He keeps an eye on what I do. When its time to put everything back, I've got a basic rule: whatever assembly could lead to a catastrophic failure (journals, cylinder installation, timing, etc...). I let the pro do it. Morale of my story: if you want to do it, don't do it alone.

If you really want to do it, bear in mind that the camshaft are numerous, so that's a lot of pulley and spring to actuate when turning the crankshaft. Rotating the crankshaft requires quite some force. Unfortunately it does take very little additional effort to bend the cam... So, while your camshafts are out I would try a leak-down test. If the leak-down test is successfull, next step is to find TDC (piston stop tool could make it do if the camshafts are out?), re-install camshafts, align the camshaft marks, etc... (see previous suggestions). Once finished make 5x2 complete crankshaft rotations and check that the timing is still fine every two turns (so check it 5 times!).

As this relies on TDC & camshafts mark, the timing wilk be rougly correct, but not perfect (would require a degree wheel, special tools, and great knowledge) .

That's how I would do it on the Renault...

 

Good idea if he has the space.

 

Matthew, no one here intends to talk down to you. Most of us on here are novices (including me) but, some have a considerable amount of experience.
I can imagine your situation is as frustrating as it is disquieting. Keep in mind that what you are doing is advanced level stuff and mistakes can be costly. Take a deep breath and pause- you're going to get this fixed one way or the other and we will help you as best we can. But know that once you set the timing correctly you still may not be out of the woods- it takes very little to bend a valve so you may have more work to do. That is why I would do a leakdown and compression test once its back together.

Pull the cams so no valves are hitting the pistons, report back and, don't give up.

 

Matt,

Ignore the detractors. Just be you. There are plenty here to get you in the right direction.

Follow yelcab"s outline and you should be fine if no valves bent. He and I have successfully done this many times. It is just a car.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but once the camshafts are removed, then would be a good time to do a leak down check to verify valves seat. Saves you from putting it back together, only to take it apart again if a valve is bent.

 

Yes..much much easier to do with the cams out. It is a step that defiantly should be taken at this point.

 

I thought I had seen it all, but no.

Good move.. you just blocked one of the most knowledge Ferrari engine builders on this entire forum.

No offense Matthew Ferrari - and welcome to the forum by the way - but this job usually works a lot better with dial indicators and degree wheels. Yes, on a Toyota you can generally get away with just swapping the belts and pulling the cams in and out, but that's not how it works on the Ferrari 360.

Something you should definitely be aware of is this: the ECU on the 360 has a window in the software where it's looking for a very accurately calibrated center set baseline. This window allows the ECU to make real time adjustments, blah, blah.. but if you don't get the belts back on exactly right (down to a few Hz of vibration using a tuned meter) and get things centered again, then you could every easily create a situation here where the ECU throws a CEL light and/or slams the valves into the pistons (assuming you haven't already done that by hand) as the belts grow due to heat, etc.

I'm pretty adept at engine building, so back when I had my 360 I was going to change the belts myself. I even bought all the tools. However, in speaking with my friend at FNA regarding doing this job, I realized there are some very touchy areas here. So, proceed with great caution my friend. No offense to DIY Ferrari repair or you personally, but based on your previous posts, I think you might be in a bit over your head here.

And remember: replacing Ferrari pistons ain't no fun. Just ask Rifledriver ;-)

Ray

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lol

 

Not to throw fuel on the fire here, but are you over 18?



I know a lot of younger folks did real well in Crypto these last few years.

Ray

 

Doing a leak down test when the cams are off any motor usually is a lot easier, because all the cylinders are sealed up. Pump air into, compare the PSI on the leak down gauge, do the math and you can quickly see if there are any holes lurking around any place.

Ray

 

Whoa... I'm starting to wonder if I might be psychic this morning...

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Okay, all kidding aside.. Matthew, again welcome to the forum. This is certainly one of the most rough forays into being a member of Ferrarichat that I've seen recently, but I think I speak for [almost] everyone when I say we are glad to have you aboard. Forum humor, you gotta love it.

Okay, so back on track; you've owned a Prius and a Tesla and you did well with Bitcoin and now have a Ferrari 360. Manual gated gear box, so you can't be all bad...

I wouldn't believe "everything" you read in that manual.

Don't do that without removing the camshafts themselves. If they are on the motor, the cam lobes will hold the valves down into the cylinder head chamber enough on some of the cylinders that rotation of the motor (via the crank) will cause the pistons to hit the valves - this is bad and it takes surprisingly little force (due to the leverage multiplication involved here) to ever so slightly bend a valve at its stem. Once you do that, the guides don't like it - especially not at 8000 RPM's.

Anyway, proceed with great caution here. I'm guessing you have not rebuilt a lot of motors in your life? The 360 is very complex at some levels. Just be very, very careful.

Ray

 

"Learning to wrench" - that's one of the few good uses of a passenger car made by Renault. And I say that as a recovering R5 Turbo 2 owner...

Ray

 

That's kinda like going into the ER for heart surgery and telling the Anesthesiologist and head surgeon that you just unfriended both of them on Facebook

Ray

 

You might want to check out YouTube also. There's usually pretty good content on there, at least as far as obtaining an overview of things. I've watched this guy's videos before. He usually does a pretty decent job of stuff on his car. I have not watched this particular video in its entirety, but perhaps it might be helpful to you in some areas:



Ray

 

Pulling the cams and merely changing the belts with a lock and swap are two very different procedures....

 

Speaking of saying a lot about people, aren't you the user who contacted me for the Ferrari 360 workshop manuals last year?

I think you still owe me $100...

Ray

 

Locking the cams and just swapping the belts is still risky, due to variations in belts and the ECU baseline stuff, from what I was told by FNA.

Perhaps Mr. Blocked can confirm this.

Ray

 

Congrats on the Turbo 2, I gave my Alpine turbo to the kid... These are typically the car that are painful to work with, but that are forgiving if you make a so-so job, and parts are affordable.

The Ferrari is the exact opposite: these cars are easy to work with, and meant to be disassembled frequently, which can give you a false sense of confidence. In reality everything is more delicate and requires accuracy: nuts and bolts do have a specific thread pitch, and must be installed in a specific order (varying length), gasket and seals can hardly be re-used, complex four overhead camshafts, etc...

As no leak-down test was performed we can only speculate, but as a rough guess: the timing was almost certainly lost during disassembly, also chances are that some valves are bent. On the one hand, if the leak-down test is fine, he may get away with re-assembling whatever he removed so far. On the other hand if the valves are bent , dropping the head implies to spend approx £700 (tax & shipping excl.) just in gaskets, so he'd better know what he is doing as trial and error will be expensive.

 

Errors can be very expensive on Ferraris, that's for sure

I think a good leak down test would probably show up even a very mildly bent valve. On my Toyota 22RE cylinder head, I'm lapping the valves with diamond compound to achieve a better than factory lap on the seats and maybe a slightly wider seat width.

Speaking of leak down testers, I just ordered a new one last night Not "new", but once I get done rebuilding and upgrading it, it should be like new.

Yeah, R5 Turbo 2.. fun times lol.

Ray

 

Here's the leak down tester that is coming in the mail... I just need to swap some quick disconnect fittings and build some hoses and whatnot. The other one I had had liquid filled gauges, which drove me nuts.

Ray


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