In a recent PCA video, which are usually informative, this guy makes the usual Luddite reference to a Porsche DCT as an “automatic”. Uh… no. Due to my current physical limitations I drive a.Tiptronic-equipped 911/964. That is an automatic, a ZF box with a smart(-ish) Bosch control unit. Yes, you can change gears by moving the lever, but it’s a torque converter arrangement and the car’s quicker if you leave it in D and mash the throttle. Any modern automatic allows for gear changes, but the primary mode of use is typically D or S. The gearbox follows orders… eventually. The development that Porsche has put into the PDK is light years beyond any of this. It’s the best way to drive a manual gearbox in traffic, and best on a track. Calling it an “automatic” is like calling a push button phone automatic compared to a proper rotary interface. Yes, there is the tactile sensation of working harder for a ‘9’ than a ‘3’, and the art of the dial itself, sort of a gated shifter equivalent for your finger, but ultimately that’s not the point. You can still buy an actual automatic if that’s what you want. The ZF 8-speed box is perfectly fine and seems durable and efficient. If you have the budget, PDK has effectively killed both the automatic and the three-pedal manual. If it had no “auto” mode there would be no discussion. /rant Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Agree. I didn't watch the video, but it is very sloppy and misleading to call it an automatic. It's important to understand the differences -- PDK can't be matched for the track. On the flip side, it isn't always the best choice for a daily driver in my opinion. The Macan only comes with PDK -- it's a great transmission -- but I'm not enthusiastic at all about the $1000 PDK oil changes or the $23,000 replacement cost (just for parts) if PDK fails. As much as I like PDK in the Macan, it isn't that much better in a daily driver car than the automatic we had in the Audi Q5 before it. I'd rather have an automatic for a Macan DD if it was offered. I agree that it's very important to understand the distinction between the two.
Absolutely. I know the Tiptronic in my 911 won't hold a candle to a PDK, but it is probably the most economical bit on the car. As to the Macan, there should probably be a no-cost option for an automatic. As you say, most Macan drivers probably don't need the technical overhead or expense.
./disagree The PDK can automatically change gears for you, therefore automatic. I don't want flappy paddles, regardless of how good the gearboxes, computers and clutches are. I want a clutch pedal and a stick mechanically connected to a gearbox.
Here is the criteria, in my opinion: is there a mode you can put it in where it WILL NOT SHIFT on it's own, under any circumstances? So will it let you bounce it off the rev limiter, or will it automatically upshift? If you are in third and you slow down, will it let the engine stall or will it downshift to second and first? If the answer to either of those questions is yes, especially if both are yes, it is an automatic. It is an automatic because it shifts on it's own.
I sort of agree. Unless it has recently changed that classification of transmissions are defined by the Federal government as '"AUTOMATIC". Sorry to say but they make the rules. Through automotive history automatics have changed internally many times. Many have had clutches. Some have had no torque converter. A few have required manual shifting. The PDK and the Magnetti Marelli Selespeed are just the latter evolution of a long line of automatics.
Yes, and humans and zebras are "mammals", but they are not the same (one has stripes, for example ). If you're talking to somebody who does not care or know about cars, then you can dumb it down by calling it an automatic. But even then, that's a bit of a mistake, because the first time they encounter a stop sign or traffic light on a hill, they will panic when the car rolls down the hill when they let off the brake -- exactly like a manual transmission car in neutral -- because it very literally is a manual transmission in neutral. That is, unless they know to engage the "hold" function, which they won't, because they you told them it was an automatic. The rolling on PDK even catches me off-guard sometimes even though I drive a manual a lot and vastly prefer manuals. Calling it an automatic in a video about a specialty car to a "car person" audience is YouTube malpractice . It is massively imprecise. In fact, it's highly misleading because there are huge cost and performance differences between F1 and automatic. The cost differences are enough that, after owning 2 F1-trans cars (Macan & Maserati), I will likely never buy another F1 transmission even though I like how they perform (very significantly better than an automatic in the Maserati, and "shades of gray" improvement over automatic in the Macan). Performance-wise, I disliked my first 996 because of the Tiptronic (bought the automatic for my wife). The automatic sucked all the life out of it. She kept asking for another 996, so this time I bought a 6-speed and it's one of my favorite cars to drive of all time (feels light and tossable like a late-60's/early-70's 911e, but with double the horsepower and all the creature comforts). I can tell you for certain, if they had PDK back then, I would have loved that first 996 about 90% as much as I love the manual 996 (the driving improvement can be that significant). On many Ferrari and Maserati models, the transmission and clutch on the F1 cars is the exact same as the manual cars, just with actuators added to shift -- calling that thing that is 90% manual hardware an automatic is sloppy and (probably unintentionally) highly deceptive. I'm with you in spirit -- I'd rather have a manual transmission a million times over anything else -- but you just can't call something that is 90% manual hardware an automatic in any kind of serious automotive context -- especially with the major cost and performance implications of choosing the wrong one for your specific needs.
Yes, the government lumps them together. But then a Ford Econoline van and Ferrari F1 car are both in the same category. Not helpful. I view the PDK as the evolution of the three-pedal manual, but the addition of an “auto” feature makes it a (pricey/complex) possible successor to the traditional automatic. There is a duality of function. If the “auto” feature were omitted, I think the PDK would be regarded as a manual. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
From an EPA standpoint, who cares? I agree, it doesn't matter because there isn't a distinction between them that is meaningful in the EPA context (though the F1 version will typically get slightly better fuel mileage than a true automatic). From a "car information" standpoint, to a "car person" audience, it is reckless, lazy, and deceiving to lump them together, because there are major performance and cost differences between the two, and the underlying hardware is 100% manual and 0% automatic. Full disclosure, I haven't watched the video to see the context -- I will try to do that when I have time -- but to car people, I would never ever ever call an F1 transmission an automatic.
My 6-speed manual Cayman S has hill hold as well. For that matter, my Tesla S behaves in the same way-- it has hill hold, but if it didn't, it would roll back. Before Tesla added hill hold, the earlier ones did exactly that. So I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. @Bullfighter you never answered my question. Is there a mode you can put the PDK in where it will not shift gears on it's own under any circumstances?
The video is hardly worth watching - just posted here to document the YouTube “malpractice”. And you are correct — mechanically it’s basically a manual. On the Tiptronic, it does change the nature of the car, because it’s a real automatic. Unfortunately it’s my only choice right now, but truth is for most driving it’s perfectly fine. (The Sportomatic also used a torque converter, but with a manual gear lever… that’s an odd one.) Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
And Mercedes made many cars in the late 50's with both a clutch and a torque converter. Many steps this evolution. It can be denied all you like. Changes nothing. At about this step in evolution of PDK and Selespeed, old style automatics had no Spraque clutch either. Thats what hill holds an old style automatic. And a hill holder in a stick shift? American cars had those in the 50's. Like I said lots of steps to the evolution.
Current automatic transmissions allow you to manually change gears and have the same auto and manual modes as the DCTs. My wife's old Mazda 3 had an automatic transmission that you could put into manual mode and use the paddle shifters. I think it is a bit of splitting hairs. If you don't want to call the DCT an auto you certainly can't call it a manual either. Then factor in the CVTs or the early F1 automated manuals and it gets really complicated. The only place that any of this bothers me is when dealers mislabel cars for sale on autotrader.
Because, with PDK, you have to manually push the brake pedal a little harder to engage the hold function -- sometimes you have to let off the brake slightly and push it again before hold comes on -- it is not automatic -- you have to drive it differently than an actual automatic transmission, where you don't have to worry about hills. Lots of engines have been grenaded by accidentally downshifting from 4th to 1st instead of 3rd, so intelligence built into F1 transmission preventing mistakes is not a bad thing. I do agree that it will upshift for you if you run to redline -- which is technically not necessary if the car has a rev limiter -- and that can be annoying under some circumstances. I don't know if sport mode bypasses or lessens that upshift because I don't really drive in the Macan like that. I can see how that can be annoying, but that still doesn't make it an automatic.
If it shifts by itself, it's an automatic. The -method- it uses to do so really doesn't matter. And yes, that means F1 flappy paddle cars are effectively automatics.
First of all, it's a silly argument. Second of all, I'm going to win that silly argument by throwing some Daniel Webster at you The problem with your arguments is that you are using "automatic" as an adjective. When you talk about "an automatic", in the context of a car discussion, it is talking about the noun -- a physical automatic transmission with fluid drive. There is no other interpretation of "an automatic" as a physical thing. Yes, a PDK can be automatic (as an adjective), but it is not "an automatic'. It couldn't be more different than an automatic. If you walked into a garage and saw a PDK transmission on the ground and said 'that's an automatic transmission" -- the shop owner would kick you out of the shop , or at least think a LOT less of your car knowledge. Yes, it can run in an automatic fashion, but it is not an automatic or anything close to an automatic transmission. Exhibit A: Flappy paddle cars can be automatic (the adjective), but they are not automatics (the noun), nor are they even remotely similar to an automatic transmission except that they can be made to mimic their behavior. The prosecution rests
Ill informed and idiotic. An example of a fully mechanical automatic transmission The 1904 Sturtevant "horseless carriage gearbox" is often considered to be the first automatic transmission for motor vehicles.[8][9] Developed in Boston in the United States, this transmission had two forward gear ratios and engine-driven flyweights which controlled the gear selection.[citation needed] At higher engine speeds, high gear was engaged. As the vehicle slowed down and engine RPM decreased, the gearbox would shift back to low. However, the transmission was prone to sudden failure, due to the transmission being unable to withstand forces from the abrupt gear changes.ere is it written an automatic is A wikipedia definition of automatic transmission. An automatic transmission (sometimes abbreviated AT) is a multi-speed transmission used in motor vehicles that does not require any input from the driver to change forward gears under normal driving conditions. The most common type of automatic transmission is the hydraulic automatic, which uses a planetary gearset, hydraulic controls, and a torque converter. Other types of automatic transmissions include continuously variable transmissions (CVT), automated manual transmissions (AMT), and dual-clutch transmissions (DCT). I am pretty well versed in automotive history and not once have I ever heard the definition of automatic transmissions are being hydraulic.Anyone that might do so is simply history and English language challenged. As this shows there are examples of fully automatic transmission that were 100% mechanical. Do we really need to quote Webster on the meaning of the word "Automatic" ?
That hill hold thing just sounds like poor design. My manual transmission Cayman doesn't require that at all... it just holds. So does the Tesla, for that matter.
I'd guess your Cayman activates the hold function off of depressing the clutch. The Macan PDK requires specific action on the brake pedal -- if you really want the details, they're here: https://www.macanforum.com/threads/the-macan-auto-hold-function.17466/. I don't think the Maserati F1 had a hold feature at all, but that was three cars ago, so I'm not positive. We never, ever, ever drove the Maserati in "Auto" mode (auto mode wears the clutch out very fast on the Maserati because it feathers the clutch to smooth the shifts) -- we drove it in "sport" mode with paddles only -- 100% of the time. Our Q5 Tiptronic automatic had paddles -- in no way, in a million years, could you ever confuse the slushbox paddle shifting on Tiptronic with paddle shifting a real internal manual transmission. Not anywhere close. The Maserati was exactly like the manual car in shifting feel and control -- I did miss the shifter for sure, but it had every bit of immediacy of the manual version. It's absurd to equate it with a slushbox automatic just because it can shift itself. It felt exactly like the manual car because it was the manual car in every way except for the user interface. My wife asked me why the Macan rolls on hills, and I told her "that's because it's an automated manual" and she got that immediately (her 996 is manual, so was her old TR6). She does not think it's an automatic, and she's not really a car person. It's really hard for me to believe car people would call it an automatic when it is nothing like an automatic in driving feel or in it's components.
Tip: your TIP is early, so I don’t know if this will work in your car. But in a 996, you can downshift by blipping the throttle. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
With the Audi DSG, if you put it in manual mode, it up shifts and downshifts when you pull the steering wheel paddle. Yes, I imagine if you redline it in 1st it won’t rev higher and will upshift prior to engine damage, but any competent driver in a three-pedal manual would have upshifted long before that point. Also, the DSG goes into neutral on its own at a full stop. That is automatic, however has nothing to do with driving skill or performance. Any idiot in a three-pedal manual knows to declutch and use neutral at a stop. Automated rev matching in a three-pedal manual would similarly not make it an automatic, although that does affect performance so maybe… All fine points, but the bottom line IMHO is that an automatic and DCT are different, and that a DCT in manual mode is effectively a manual using steering wheel controls rather than a lever on the floor. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
It has kick down but it’s more of a stomp than a blip… 996 was actually a better unit. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
