Stop calling a PDK an “automatic”

The 996.2 Tiptronic was improved, but the Tiptronic on our 996.1 wasn't great. To put a sharper point on the difference between F1 and Automatic, the 996 Tip had rocker shift buttons (not paddles) on both sides of the steering wheel, so you could shift manually any time you wanted pushing buttons with your thumbs. Even though the automatic transmission was the only thing I didn't like about that car, I never used those buttons at all because, on a slushbox, they are not anything like a manual shift, it just slowly slides into the gear, just like you were manually moving the shifter on an automatic. On the Maserati, with true F1 transmission, we used nothing but the paddles 100% of the time because it felt amazing, and was exactly, to the tee, like driving a manual except the user interface. It feels the same as manual for obvious reasons (because it is identical to the manual mechanically). The Maserati was legit 80% as fun to drive as a manual, but much more comfortable in NYC traffic because you didn't have to bother with a clutch.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I am going to keep calling these things "automatics" because, well, they shift automatically.

To give one more counter example, my BMW R1200GS motorcycle allows shifting without using the clutch. However, it never, ever, under any circumstances, shifts without my initiating the shift (I don't believe it is physically possible). Thus, that is still a manual transmission even though you don't always have to use the clutch.

But the PDK and Tiptronic, etc are not that. The Ferrari F1 transmissions are closer, because they won't upshift at redline (in sport mode), but they still downshift when you slow down, so I still count them as automatics.

On the hill hold thing, I will say that the Tesla does hill hold and does not require any input to the brake pedal to activate it. So that, again, is just poor design on the part of the Macan, if that is what it takes.

 

I had an epiphany one day in 2015 when I was driving an old 3 pedal Toyota pickup from the 80s and realized I was enjoying driving it more than I did my PDK 991S. The PDK was neat at first when I bought it but just got boring over time. I took it to the track a couple times too. It would have been a forever car for me if it had 3 pedals like both my cars do now.

 

Sorry, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck......it's an automatic.

If someone can put a car into "D" and go from 0-150 without a clutch pedal it's an automatic. Certainly an improvement on torque converter automatics, and I would like to own one someday.

 

Shaking my head. It doesn't walk like a duck, or talk like a duck -- it anatomically contains no duck at all -- it can only mimic a duck (though only if you ask it to). Paddle-shift an automatic versus an F1, and they are miles apart. The performance is MUCH better than automatic, the efficiency is MUCH better than an automatic, and the driving feel and responsiveness is exactly the same as the manual version (and the performance is better than a manual).

Hopefully this will end this ridiculous discussion ==> By all of your logic, modern automatic transmissions are unequivocally F1 transmissions because they have paddles and can be shifted with paddles. If they have paddles, and can be shifted by paddles, automatics must be F1 transmissions. It's proven by all that duck stuff

 

I put 60k miles on my PDK before I sold it, always used it in “M” never in “A” but the driving experience still had much more in common with driving a mushbox car with shift buttons than a manual.

 

Dang you are butthurt having to drive an automatic. Even when I buy a PDK in the future at least I will be honest about it.

 

See this guy is honest about it……

 

Has he driven a 911 Tiptronic (automatic) and compared it to the PDK? Have you????

You haven't read my posts. I'm not a fan of PDK for the simple reason that it is ridiculously expensive to maintain and repair. I mean totally ridiculous. The PDK transmission isn't serviceable by Porsche if it has a major failure and it costs $23,000 to replace if it fails (not including labor), and that is on the Macan, which I think is more of an Audi-based PDK than the 911. I just got a quote for $1400 for the single line item of changing PDK oil as part of the 40k mile service of my still under warranty Macan (that is a high quote, even for a Porsche dealer (more typically $700-$1000), but still too f'in' high for an oil change).

I wish my Macan was an automatic. PDK is totally overkill for an SUV, even a sporting one like the Macan, but it is the only transmission available. Our Q5's Tiptronic (that we had before the Macan) was very, very good in normal automatic mode, and absolute crap in paddle mode (just like moving the stickshift lever, it has slow sliding fluid hydraulic shifts -- in no way does it replicate the direct performance of a manual). The thing is, I don't need or use paddles in either the Q5 or the Macan as a DD SUV, so that automatic was fine and required zero maintenance from brand new to over 100,000 miles when I traded it on the Macan. The SDK in the Macan is noticeably crisper in automatic mode, and it gets 2-3 mpg better mileage than our Q5 despite weighing a bit more than the Q5 and having essentially the same engine, because it is effectively a manual transmission (versus automatics that have significant hydraulic efficiency/power loss). The Macan's SDK is far better in manual shifting -- though not nearly as good as the Maserati in sport mode because I think Porsche designed PDK to keep the manual paddle shifts smooth -- but, as I've said, I don't need or use paddles in a DD SUV. I honestly would have paid extra to have automatic in the Macan so I didn't have to worry about maintenance/repairs since I don't need the benefits of PDK in that car.

Troubles and maintenance costs for the F1 transmission were the only reason we got rid of the Maserati.

Unless you have very deep pockets, and have absolutely no regard for operating costs -- do not buy an "out of warranty" PDK Porsche, or Ferrari F1, or Maserati F1 -- you will be very unhappy with maintenance, service, and reliability long term.

I've already said in a prior post that I will never buy another F1 transmission car for these reasons.

All of the above said, about how ridiculous they are to maintain and repair, the F1 transmissions perform phenomenally and can be exactly the same as manual (for obvious reasons) except for the user interface. I think Porsche softened PDK slightly for refinement -- but PDK performs better than their manual car, and much better than Tiptronic. If you don't regularly have heavy traffic, or it's not a wife's car who prefers something that can operate automatically, get a manual. If it's an SUV you don't plan to autocross , get an automatic. If you need shifting that can be automatic (e.g. NYC traffic, wife preferences, (I have both concerns)) in a sports car, get PDK/F1, but only own it while under warranty (and still be prepared to pay some maintenance costs for the PDK).

I honestly wish they never introduced F1 transmissions for the street. Firstly, because they aren't "ready for prime time" as a maintainable repairable component in normal street use. The much bigger reason is because that resulted in manufacturers eliminating manual cars. I think the lack of manuals has been a disaster for enthusiasts for Ferrari, Porsche (though Porsche has brought it back a little bit), and others. They are only manageable cost/risk-wise under warranty -- and they are less fun than manual if you don't have traffic/wife/etc concerns -- so it is ridiculous that the manual option (mostly) no longer exists. There are many cars I would want to buy, but will never own, because of my hard-line stance on never buying another F1.

There's a lot of crap that's bad about F1, and a lot that's great in terms of performance and driving feel. It's important to understand both sides thoroughly, not one-sided labeling of them as 'automatics', based on one tiny optional facet, ignoring all the ways that they are vastly superior in performance (and also far worse in maintenance/repair). I think my "all modern automatics are F1's because they have paddles" illustrates why that labeling is also highly inaccurate. I'd be fine with F1 transmissions being an option if manual transmissions were still just as easy to get, because there is need and benefit to PDK/F1, but it is to a fairly narrow demographic -- that's why I'm pretty livid that they have caused the end of manual transmissions.

 

Hope you realize I'm not bothering to read these long posts. You can call a transmission whatever you want....but in a forum full of cars guys it just comes out looking silly.

 

It's your loss. The post talks about everything that's great about PDK/F1, and everything that sucks about PDK/F1 (mostly the latter). The post isn't about what label you call it. I wrote it specifically for you, as a courtesy, since you stated you plan to buy a PDK. It's information that's good to know if you're an enthusiast, and essential to know if you are actually considering buying a PDK. But you know everything, apparently without any first-hand experience, and are impervious to information, so you do you.

 

What loss? I've driven both Turbos and GT3s in PDK. Great automatic transmission.....

 

All sorts of different technologies out there, but the big difference in the driver experience is driver workload. Downshifting a PDK takes one step (or zero) and downshifting a manual takes nine.

 

Having owned 19 manual shift vehicles over the last (many) years, Thank god for my PDK !!!
If you don't like the PDK, don't buy it.
And please don't bother telling me about it.
and get off my lawn!

 

Nothing wrong with the PDK, to be sure. I even like the F1 in my 612, although it requires more understanding than a typical automatic. For that matter, I enjoy the old fluid coupling automatic in my Mercedes 6.3, which, while not "smooth" at all is fun to drive as it bangs off shifts.

 

The way I look at it, if my wife can drive it, (sadly) it's an automatic. To me, it doesn't really matter which type.

If it has a clutch pedal, it's a manual.

 

2 pedals = automatic

End of.

 

Is there something wrong with that?

 

Suppose I instruct my butler to do the laundry. Suppose further I brag to my friends that I wash my clothes manually. Am I or am I not a ****** bag?

 

Oh I thought we were talking production cars. As for race cars, sure there's an unlimited amount of different transmission types as well.

Still, stick a manual valvebody in a turbo 400 (so you have to manual shift it) and it's still an automatic transmission.