Stop calling a PDK an “automatic”

Who said that? Not me. I think racing has definitively proven that a clutch pedal slows you down. Drag racers haven't used manual clutches in decades.

 

They don't use double clutches either, the extra weight slows you down.

 

Many do, many don't. Can find a bit of everything out there.

 

If I'm identifying a car as having a manual transmission, it's going to have 3 pedals.

If you really want to be specific about what -other- type of transmission a car has, sure you can say torque converter auto, single disc automated manual, dual clutch, CVT so on and so forth but it's just incorrect to lump them in and call them manual transmissions.

I wish more agreed, would probably save a few hundred cars to sift through when trying to separate manual vs auto cars for sale.

What if I mention a car has a naturally aspirated V8 but I'm talking about a 458 vs a 355 am I also missing out on decades of engine development by not saying it's direct injected, variable valve timing/valved plenums/etc/etc/etc?

I don't think so. Doesn't mean the details can't be discussed but they don't always have to be either.

Say there are two 911's parked next to each other one manual one PDK, to a layman that asks I shouldn't say- "one is manual, one is auto" I need to dive into the difference and operation of PDK?

Certainly I wouldn't just say "both are manual".

 

At least in the endurance racing world they are all using sequential transmissions with straight cut gears. Even the cars that come from the factory with a DCT.

 

To be fair, can the same not be said for PDK? (the part about put it in D and fire up your cell phone).

To that extent it can be driven the exact same way as an automatic. And a torque converter ZF8 can be shifted in manual mode for example.

Yes PDK is much faster than ZF8 but from a drivers perspective, operation is pretty much the same.

Even Porsche's own literature references automatic several times and says it's like having 2 transmissions in one.


I'm not trying to discount it's performance or the technology.

Just don't think it's necessarily bad to call a transmission that can shift automatically an automatic.

 

Curious about this part. The majority of DCT equipped vehicles (PDK or otherwise) are generic sedans and SUVs that will never be taken out of Auto. Except maybe by accident.

 

I just want to be able to go to cars.com and filter for 2 pedal or 3 pedal cars. People that put "manual" because there are buttons to change gears on their 2 pedal car know full well that's not what people are looking for when they select "manual".

 

Some of you guys seem to think "automatic" is some sort of insult. It's not, it is simply a description. "Slushbox" "flappy paddle" whatever, could certainly be considered insults, but I have not used those terms outside of this post.

"Automatic" IS NOT an insult! It is a description.

 

This drives me nuts!

 

You are (I'm sure not intentionally) twisting the discussion around. Not one person in any post has suggested that a PDK/F1 transmission should be called a "manual". That would be ridiculous, even though virtually the entire transmission is a manual internally -- because even in "manual mode" with PDK/F1, you are pulling paddles instead of moving a shifter and operating a clutch. Nobody is saying that PDK should be called a manual.

That said, PDK/F1 transmissions are mechanically the same as, and sometimes identical to, a manual transmission internally, so they have no meaningful efficiency losses in operation as compared to fluid-based automatic transmissions, which have significant power and efficiency losses. Even if a PDK/F1 transmission didn't feel significantly different than an automatic in driving feel (which it almost always does), PDK/F1 is always way more efficient than a traditional fluid automatic. That's why it's equally ridiculous to call it an "automatic" as the only word you are using to describe it.

Neither "manual" nor "automatic", as a single word, is anywhere close to being sufficient to describe a PDK/F1 transmission. Does it operate like an automatic? Absolutely. Does it have the efficiency of a manual? Absolutely. Is it a "manual" or "automatic" (as a single word to describe it to people who are mechanically competent)? Absolutely not -- ether one is ridiculous to gearheads who know that the transmissions are completely different.

If you want a short label that is anywhere close to accurate, one word won't cut it. Probably the most succinct description of PDK/F1 is 2 words: "automated manual".

 

Happy to be proven wrong but I am not sure this is true. The early F1 were the same as the manual just with hydraulic pumps and electronics to facilitate changing gears. Thats why there are companies making conversions for the 355/360/430. The DCT (and PDK is included in this) are dual clutch transmissions. I have never heard of a dual clutch manual transmission. Please let me know if there is such a thing. Even for the companies that offer both in the same car (like Porsche) I don't think the DCT and manual have anything to do with each other. That's why a lot of times the manual has a different number of dears from the DCT.

 

I meant to say "mechanically the same general design as manual..." instead of "the same as". It doesn't matter if a given automated manual happens to have details that are different from the manual version of the car -- they are all fundamentally the same general design as manuals and as different as they can be from fluid transmissions -- and they all have efficiency advantages over fluid.

 

I didn't know it had an intended primary use. When they went from tiptronic to PDK in the 911, the shifter for example was very similar.

P R N D and M modes. With a matching display on the cluster.

Anyone that can only drive an automatic could hop right in one and drive it like any other car.

 

Nobody offers torque converter and double-clutch transmission options simultaneously. To a layman, two pedal cars are “automatic” and three are “manual”. It’s used as a differentiator between the two transmissions the car can be ordered with. Park a PDK and a manual 911 next to each other and ask a non-car person which is the “automated manual” and they may not be sure.

Just like “all wheel drive” and “four wheel drive” are the same to most people. The mechanical details and relative advantages are irrelevant. Does power go to two wheels or all four? Do you push on a clutch pedal or not?

 

?????? How is that relevant? None of us are layman. We are all car enthusiasts and it's a car enthusiast forum. The only reason for calling it an automatic, without any other qualifiers, is to dumb it down for people who know nothing and/or care nothing about cars. That's not any of us. You can use that term when you talk to your grandmother -- that's context where it's appropriate -- not on a car forum of car experts.

 

I think (and seems others agree) the point that two pedal cars are automatic and three are manual, is relevant, no matter the audience.

Aside from that, I think it's fair to say that a forum such as this is compromised of enthusiasts but every member an expert? That's a bit of a reach, to be polite.

Regardless, issue was taken with the word automatic, spoken in the linked video which is available to the public. (In reference to a transmission capable of such)

Fair to say a youtube video is not limited to viewing by experts?

Anyway, said in another way, anyone (which includes myself) that would only consider a 3-pedal car.....

........referring to PDK by -automatic-, dual clutch, DCT, Porsche Doppel Kupplungs......none, to me, are either derogatory or persuasive.


People who want a 3 pedal car will have a 3 pedal car even if transmissions progress to the degree of time travel.

 

A three pedal car can absolutely be called a manual because there is only one flavor of 3-pedal car. You can't (accurately) call 2-pedal cars "automatic" to car people because there are several flavors of 2-pedal cars (PDK/F1, traditional automatic, CVT) -- and all 3 flavors are completely different transmissions that drive and perform very differently.

You don't need to be a "expert" to know the difference, if you have any real interest in cars at all, you likely know the difference between F1 and automatic.

The vast majority of Fchat will know. Most people who chose to watch a Porsche GT3 review video will know.

All of the above said, it doesn't matter whether you know the difference or not, calling PDK/F1 an "automatic" without any qualifiers sucks either way.

For people who know the difference, calling F1/PDK automatic is inaccurate and deceiving (because calling it "automatic", without further information, very strongly implies a type of transmission that it is not even a little bit similar to, even though it can be operated in a similar manner)

If, by chance, somebody on Fchat does not know the difference between F1 and automatic, the last thing in the world we would want to do is to delude those people by calling it an automatic, which keeps them ignorant of the differences.

It doesn't work at all either way.

I'm praying the above finally ends this ridiculous discussion (I'm an eternal optimist )

 

Apologies but eternal optimism aside, in -my- opinion, any 2 pedal car is in some form an automatic.

By definition, an automatic transmission has an ability to change gears automatically. No?

So for me, calling a transmission capable and probably in most cases shifting automatically an automatic is not inaccurate or deceiving.

If not, what to you say defines a transmission as automatic?

 

Why does this bother you so much? Is there something wrong with it being an automatic? Are you this much of a stickler about everything in life?

"It's not a "pizza"-- it is a round Neapolitan flat bread with cheese and tomato toppings. Calling it a "pizza" is simply wrong-- it's a flatbread!"

 

It doesn't bother me even 1%, trust me. It's just that talking in intentionally vague terms, when the specifics are very relevant to the discussion, is not constructive.

I think you guys are yanking my (and @Bullfighter 's chain)

To use your example, if you are talking about a pizza in any context (What pizza do you like?, What pizza should we order?, How many calories?, etc. -- virtually any meaningful discussion etc) -- you talk about types of pizza -- why would anybody talk pizza in the abstract when type is very relevant for any real discussion?

In the above, I'd argue argue that you have it exactly backwards. Automatic (on its own) is NOT a description of the transmission at all, it only describes one aspect of how it can operate, and it gives no hint whether it is F1, auto, or CVT (when actual transmission type is relevant in any discussion among car people on a car forum).

However, "Slushbox" and "Flappy Paddle" are absolutely descriptions, because we know exactly what you are talking about. "Slushbox" leaves no ambiguity about transmission type -- and I don't think it is insulting (not that that's relevant), it's a very accurate description. Although automatics can also have flappy pedals, it's not the first term anybody would ever use to describe an automatic, so we know you are talking about F1/PDK. Those are descriptions. "Automatic" is a hint about one aspect of how the transmission can operate.